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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I know: you hate Israel, and won't let rational considerations get in the way of getting your little jibe in. |
Come on, Fox. This is not fair. Can't one support Palestinian rights without hating Israel as a people? You yourself claim to. |
Yes, I believe one can do that. I initially even believed Big Bird fell into that category. Then we had a conversation about whether Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state, and she said some things that convinced me she holds it to a standard so different than any other nation on Earth that there's no way one can simply dismiss her attitude towards it as such.
Mind you, I don't think she hates the people of Israel as individuals. I think she hates Israel as a political entity. |
I'm tired of this line of nonsense. Please see my pm. |
I think BB is hostile to human suffering. As we all should be. She has taken an interest in a specific conflict and that is her natural right to do so. It is not reasonable to search for hidden intentions. She clearly has a comprehensive understanding of the conflict. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I think BB is hostile to human suffering. As we all should be. |
Why should we be hostile to human suffering?
I understand hostility towards unfairness, injustice, cruelty, and a host of others encompassed by those three. But requiring us (you're still only asking us) to be hostile towards suffering is a kind of oppression itself. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
I think BB is hostile to human suffering. As we all should be. |
Why should we be hostile to human suffering?
I understand hostility towards unfairness, injustice, cruelty, and a host of others encompassed by those three. But requiring us (you're still only asking us) to be hostile towards suffering is a kind of oppression itself. |
What? |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
I think BB is hostile to human suffering. As we all should be. |
Why should we be hostile to human suffering?
I understand hostility towards unfairness, injustice, cruelty, and a host of others encompassed by those three. But requiring us (you're still only asking us) to be hostile towards suffering is a kind of oppression itself. |
What? |
I'm tired of the current convo on this thread and am waxing philosophical.
Its supposed to be indisputable. Who would defend looking away from suffering? But the problem has been revealed by BB herself. People will ask her, 'BB, why don't you care about the Kurds in Turkey?'
Also, to drive to alleviate human suffering has caused a lot of human suffering.
I'm totally serious. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I know: you hate Israel, and won't let rational considerations get in the way of getting your little jibe in. |
Come on, Fox. This is not fair. Can't one support Palestinian rights without hating Israel as a people? You yourself claim to. |
Yes, I believe one can do that. I initially even believed Big Bird fell into that category. Then we had a conversation about whether Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state, and she said some things that convinced me she holds it to a standard so different than any other nation on Earth that there's no way one can simply dismiss her attitude towards it as such.
Mind you, I don't think she hates the people of Israel as individuals. I think she hates Israel as a political entity. |
I'm tired of this line of nonsense. Please see my pm. |
-Edit: You know what, forget it. If all you want is for me to not say you hate Israel, I'm magnanimous enough to do that. So long as you never mention my name or post in response to me ever again, I'll simply ignore you and your posts. Far be it from me to pick on the emotionally fragile, and if you can't handle others responding to your words with their honest opinion of them, I am willing to avoid doing it. |
That's fine. I considered what you were doing to be slanderous and defamatory, whether you agree that was your intention or not. It's ugly to see someone repeatedly assert that you 'hate' and I imagine most people would object to it. Maybe you just don't see that. If we ignore each other from this point it will be for the best.
I'm glad I never saw what you originally wrote here. No doubt it wasn't very concilitory. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I know: you hate Israel, and won't let rational considerations get in the way of getting your little jibe in. |
Come on, Fox. This is not fair. Can't one support Palestinian rights without hating Israel as a people? You yourself claim to. |
Yes, I believe one can do that. I initially even believed Big Bird fell into that category. Then we had a conversation about whether Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state, and she said some things that convinced me she holds it to a standard so different than any other nation on Earth that there's no way one can simply dismiss her attitude towards it as such.
Mind you, I don't think she hates the people of Israel as individuals. I think she hates Israel as a political entity. |
I'm tired of this line of nonsense. Please see my pm. |
I think BB is hostile to human suffering. As we all should be. She has taken an interest in a specific conflict and that is her natural right to do so. It is not reasonable to search for hidden intentions. She clearly has a comprehensive understanding of the conflict. |
Again, I was willing to believe this until a particular, fairly disappointing conversation some time back. I'm not searching for hidden intentions, I'm basing my estimation of her stance on what she herself said. I've promised not to express that estimation again to spare her feelings, so I think it's best we drop it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| People will ask her, 'BB, why don't you care about the Kurds in Turkey?' |
And the biggest problem with that question (not directed at HW) would be that it assumes I don't care, simply because I don't argue about it on this board (though I have mentioned it from time to time, as here) - as if what gets discussed by me on this board is a representive example of my entire interests and concerns. As I've tried to point out (unsucessfully to the witless) is that the only things that get argued by posters on this forum are the things that are of mutual interest (many of my other interests are not taken up at all) and those issues require at least 2 different opinions to set off a discussion. With the Kurds/Turks, what is there to discuss or argue? Until at least one person on this board starts lauding the Turks' 'heroic struggle against the Kurds' there is never going to be an interesting thread on that topic. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[q
No, it's not. All one has to do is look at the number of Israeli civilians killed and the number or Palestinian civilians killed and it becomes quite clear. I think that it would be impossible for a liberal democracy to exist given the circumstances imposed on Gaza by Israel. It's easier for Israel to be a liberal democracy, there fore I hold it to a higher standard. |
So you are saying Hamas and Fatah have never killed people on the other side? All the Palestinian deaths can be laid at Israel's doorstep? Because whether you meant that or not, that is what you are saying here. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[q
No, it's not. All one has to do is look at the number of Israeli civilians killed and the number or Palestinian civilians killed and it becomes quite clear. I think that it would be impossible for a liberal democracy to exist given the circumstances imposed on Gaza by Israel. It's easier for Israel to be a liberal democracy, there fore I hold it to a higher standard. |
So you are saying Hamas and Fatah have never killed people on the other side? All the Palestinian deaths can be laid at Israel's doorstep? Because whether you meant that or not, that is what you are saying here. |
The number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians pales in the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians pales in the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis. |
Where did you get those numbers?
I once read somewhere that prior to 1947, a number of moderate muslims and christians were killed by extremists for selling land to Jews or simply supporting the right of them to live in Palestine.
I believe it was in the 1920's but am quoting from memory. If we then count all the killings from the first up to today, do we know all the numbers.
A better plan might be to consider all the Jews killed by other Jews for the (percieved crime) of seeking conciliation with Palestinians and compare it to all the Palestinians killed (muslim/christian/samaritans) by other Palestinians for the same reason.
That might be a more specific issue to count. It might not be a more general count, but it would be a more related topic.
Then I guess we could formulate some specific questions from that data. Though are we simply seeking data? or would we be in fact trying to find data that supports our side of the argument? Which ever that was?
That leads into the Hoary question of whether we already have made up our minds on the issues, or are we able to seek data that is unjudged and then change our ideas according to what was learnt from the data?
Are we changable or unchangable? (spelling?  ) |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians pales in the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis. |
Where did you get those numbers?
I once read somewhere that prior to 1947, a number of moderate muslims and christians were killed by extremists for selling land to Jews or simply supporting the right of them to live in Palestine. |
Are you going to disprove my numbers or just talk about something that you read once about early history. Because what you say is true, just like it's true that many Jews killed many Muslims early on.
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| I believe it was in the 1920's but am quoting from memory. If we then count all the killings from the first up to today, do we know all the numbers. |
No, we don't. But it's clear that Israelis killed more Palestinians than Palestinians killed.
| Summer Wine wrote: |
A better plan might be to consider all the Jews killed by other Jews for the (percieved crime) of seeking conciliation with Palestinians and compare it to all the Palestinians killed (muslim/christian/samaritans) by other Palestinians for the same reason.
That might be a more specific issue to count. It might not be a more general count, but it would be a more related topic.
Then I guess we could formulate some specific questions from that data. Though are we simply seeking data? or would we be in fact trying to find data that supports our side of the argument? Which ever that was? |
No, that would be a rather biased count. The Jews live in a modern liberal democracy where they are not blockaded. Also they are a more unified group. Can you see the difference?
| Summer Wine wrote: |
That leads into the Hoary question of whether we already have made up our minds on the issues, or are we able to seek data that is unjudged and then change our ideas according to what was learnt from the data?
Are we changable or unchangable? (spelling? ) |
I don't know you tell me. I'm not a new jack at this, I've taken more than one class about or related to this issue. I've heard the arguments and the data, my positions have been researched. Do some in depth research if you haven't before and think it over. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you going to disprove my numbers |
I haven't seen any yet.
The rest of what you wrote is "paraphrased", I think that I believe that Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestinans have killed other Palestinians". "Though if I am wrong, it doesn't matter as Israel is supposed to be a democracy and they force Palestinians to live under inhuman conditions".
Is that about it, or was there more to what you said?
Discussing the issue of Israeli/Palestinian relations with you in an unemotional manner would probably be a waste of my time, so I will let you go on with your gollum expressions.  |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Are you going to disprove my numbers |
I haven't seen any yet.
The rest of what you wrote is "paraphrased", I think that I believe that Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestinans have killed other Palestinians". "Though if I am wrong, it doesn't matter as Israel is supposed to be a democracy and they force Palestinians to live under inhuman conditions".
Is that about it, or was there more to what you said?
Discussing the issue of Israeli/Palestinian relations with you in an unemotional manner would probably be a waste of my time, so I will let you go on with your gollum expressions. |
Numbers from the largest Palestine Vrs. Palestine conflict I can think of.
Hamas Vrs. Fatah in the Gaza Strip
98 civilians killed
1,000+ wounded on both sides, at least 600 killed in factional fighting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
It's very difficult to give numbers on these things but here are some numbers from the Gaza offensive in 2008.
"1,314 Palestinians were killed in the conflict, 412 of them children."
or
"1,268 people were killed, among them 288 children and 103 women."
or
"ranging from around 900 to 1,200 dead."
all from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7855070.stm
There have been many more conflicts between Israelis and Palestinians than between Palestinians and Palestinians.
I am being unemotional, but you, it's hard to say. I can back everything I say, I just found it hard to believe that you would actually think that Palestinians have killed more Palestinians than Israelis have.
As to the other bit it is unfair to compare the rates that Israelis have killed Israelis to the rate that Palestinians have killed Palestinians. It seems to me that you are implying that the Palestinians are barbaric and the Israelis are not. The thing is that Israel is a democracy and has a lower crime rate. Palestine doesn't have the conditions necessary for a functioning democracy, and much, not all, of the reasons can be placed at the feet of Israel. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Good facts.
Thank you for bringing numbers to the discussion.
 (I was just reading Wikipedia, (wish they would do something about making it a more secure and legit site) and the name 'Palestinian' is quite a confused one at times it seems. |
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