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Monopoly
Joined: 06 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: Korea: A Nation of Bystanders |
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An article talking about how Koreans are indifferent to crimes they witness just about anywhere at anytime.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2923072
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Citizens are becoming more indifferent to violence than ever before. Consider, for example, the collective murder of a 15-year-old girl by her school friends last month. A loud scream reverberated through the alley in her neighborhood and some neighbors even watched the scene, but no one dared to come to her rescue or report it to the police. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreans are kind. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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The flip side of this is vigilantism, not that appealing either.
Back home I remember there was an incident where a 5 year old girl was being raped and somebody saw and got a mob of people to go after the rapists.
The people in the mob ended up being initially charged as "Unlawful Combatants".
I am tired of the law. Custom needs to make a comeback. The law says that mob was wrong. Custom says it was right. Custom has its flaws but at least it still has a soul. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, get off it. The flip side of it is to notify police and for the police to take action. The flip side is also to assist someone obviously in need of defense.
What custom is there that requires a mob to beat the heck out of someone instead of stopping him from continuing the crime and holding him for the police? Did the people involved see the 5-year old getting raped (unlikely to have seen it happening) or was it something they heard about and then they took off after the (alleged) perpetrators? Lovely custom you support there. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I am tired of the law. Custom needs to make a comeback. The law says that mob was wrong. Custom says it was right. Custom has its flaws but at least it still has a soul. |
This reminds me of a small passage from an article about To Kill a Mockingbird I read recently.
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Cunningham, Finch tells his daughter, is �basically a good man,� who �just has his blind spots along with the rest of us.� Blind spots? As the legal scholar Monroe Freedman has written, �It just happens that Cunningham�s blind spot (along with the rest of us?) is a homicidal hatred of black people.� |
Yes, custom has soul. Custom is also responsible for the systematic persecution of countless social groups and millions of innocent individuals. |
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8 years down
Joined: 16 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't want to have the murderers losing face. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Oh, get off it. The flip side of it is to notify police and for the police to take action. The flip side is also to assist someone obviously in need of defense.
What custom is there that requires a mob to beat the heck out of someone instead of stopping him from continuing the crime and holding him for the police? Did the people involved see the 5-year old getting raped (unlikely to have seen it happening) or was it something they heard about and then they took off after the (alleged) perpetrators? Lovely custom you support there. |
The middle ground is to notify the police and for the police to take action and to use moderate force to prevent an escalation. The flip side is vigilantism.
It is very easy to get cultures that don't do anything, pretty much a problem in any big city. It is also easy to get an atmosphere of mob like vigilantism. These modern days its becoming harder to get that middle ground.
I was more referring to the fact that if Koreans were to be more 'proactive' given their 'gusts of popular feeling' this could easily turn into a more mob type mentality. A Korean mob sound good to you?
As for the incident the rape was in process and it was two guys on a five year old.
You're darn tootin right I support the beating of child rapists by the community. Sometimes you can't wait for the police. And anyone who doesn't want to take a bat to the head of a child rapist in the act has a few screws loose in my book.
Child rape isn't just a crime against the child, its a crime against the community.
But hey if I guess if I'm ever in that situation I should just stand and watch while I wait for the police to show up. I for one am happy those people didn't just stand by but acted as quickly as possible and made sure the guys were taken down. No waiting 45 minutes for a single squad car to show up and the guys outrunning Mutt and Jeff. And since it was one person it was better that he didn't yell and cause the two guys to split with a good chance that both would get away. No, get the neighborhood and make sure those guy are taken out and that a message is sent to any other would-be child-rapists in the area.
Two guys fighting on the street, meh who knows why. Child rape, pretty clear-cut on who is right and wrong.
Swift, Certain, Harsh consequences remain the primary deterrent to crime along with education and economic status. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have a few screws loose because I support a legal response to a crime? Seems to me like you, someone who apparently believes in uncontrolled mob violence, is the one who's not all there.
And you're a liar. I did not say stand by and watch. I said stop the criminal from continuing in the crime. I said hold him for the police. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| With most crimes, I'd stop and hold the offender. Raping a 5 year old? I'd kill the bastard, and cry the entire time I was doing so. |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Violence toward women and violence toward animals is met in public by indifference - I've seen it more than once, being the only one to react.
Why don't Koreans do something? Does the group mentality come into play? the Confucian sense of responsibility/lack thereof toward strangers?
I try to focus on the positives and just shake my head at such things. It is different around here. I'm not sure why. As a teacher here for just a few years, I don't need to understand or accept everything. I certainly don't feel the need to change the society nor judge them. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| Violence toward women and violence toward animals is met in public by indifference - I've seen it more than once, being the only one to react. |
And evidently, violence towards men doesn't even deserve comment, going beyond even indifference and into triviality. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
I have a few screws loose because I support a legal response to a crime? Seems to me like you, someone who apparently believes in uncontrolled mob violence, is the one who's not all there.
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Dude, its a 5 year old.
I just don't see how any human being would not think that the people doing that should be killed. Especially if they are in the act. I don't think someone like that deserves 7 1/2 - 25 where they get off in 5 for good behavior and go and do it again. You rape that young of a minor, you're done. And more power to a neighborhood that wants you gone for good.
We're not talking the stoning of the adulteress here, we're talking an extremely heinous crime.
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| I have a few screws loose because I support a legal response to a crime? Seems to me like you, someone who apparently believes in uncontrolled mob violence, is the one who's not all there. |
So when Koreatown LA was being burned and looted, your response would be to repeatedly dial 911 and sit around?
If you live in the ghetto do you call the cops and wait the 45-1 hour for them to show up? Do you restrain a guy all by yourself hoping that his associates don't show up or that he won't give you the slip.
Sure in ideal conditions you can do that and you should do that. 95% of situations you should do that. But there are exceptions, sometimes it ain't up to the cops.
Case in point there was a shady neighborhood back home. Police would occasionally try things but the place was unwalkable at night. Then a bunch of old guys decided to just walk the neighborhood every night. 30 old guys with walking sticks and canes. I don't know if there were any altercations but crime dropped dramatically, you could walk it again. Police did nothing. The neighborhood did something.
The police aren't the answer to every criminal situation. I wish that neighborhoods were given greater liberty to police themselves.
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| And you're a liar. I did not say stand by and watch. I said stop the criminal from continuing in the crime. I said hold him for the police. |
I am not a liar, and you are in error. I clearly described how in that situation the middle ground response would be to either call the cops and wait or attempt to intervene by yourself and how both of those circumstances could be insufficient.
If you had a gun or a bat that might increase your odds but could also lead to a greater chance of a misunderstanding. If you get the neighborhood you can all vouch for each other as to the circumstances and when the law does overreact to your protection of your neighborhood's children then you can raise a greater community ruckus against those trumped up charges that deny your neighborhood the right to defend its young.
To repeat- A crime against a 5 year old is not just a crime against an individual, it is a crime against the community.
I mean what are you going to say to your neighbor?
"I appreciate you coming to my daughter's aid, but why didn't you get others to help? The guys got away, they can do this coming again."
"I don't believe in mob violence"
"That's my daughter"
or even worse if you just called the police and waited for them to come and didn't try to get help because those guys are bigger than you and one has a bat.
"Someone's raping the Nelson's girl!"
"Let's stay calm people, we want to make sure we do this in an orderly fashion and the guy gets his day in court"
That to me sounds sick. That's your neighbor man. You're supposed to look out for each other. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, maybe you should realize that I'm 100% against capital punishment. Start with that. And then continue onto the fact that I'm not against incarcerating someone for life without parole. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I just don't see how any human being would not think that the people doing that should be killed. |
I don't think he should be killed, by either an angry mob or by the government. Killing him won't make anything better, but it could make things worse:
1) The man could well be innocent in cases where an angry mob would arbitrarily declare him guilty. If a stranger were seen over the body of a dead, raped little girl, for instance, many people would automatically conclude he had done it. He could be dead before he could be exhonerated by proper testing.
2) It promotes a culture of arbitrary execution. Even if one concludes that the death penalty is acceptable (I am not of such a mindset, but for the sake of discussion, we can assume the death penalty exists in the society in question), it should be the end result of a cold deliberation over the facts, not something done on suspicion in a moment of passion by a mob. Mob violence being condoned results in one thing: more mob violence. Even if in an individual case the mob killed someone who was genuinely guilty and would have been put to death in a court of law anyway, that doesn't mean the same will be true next time. It does, however, ensure there will be a next time. It's important when considering social policy that one take into account the effect it will have on society itself over an unlimited time frame, rather than focusing on individual events.
I think one can be just and treat such offenses with the grave seriousness they are due without simultaneously being of the belief that the perpetrator should die. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Well, maybe you should realize that I'm 100% against capital punishment. Start with that. And then continue onto the fact that I'm not against incarcerating someone for life without parole. |
And I'm all for stringing up a child rapist caught in the act right then and there and letting them hang for all to see.
Forcible Penetration Sexual crimes against young minors, no you've got to go. Not a year later, right then and there. Maybe murder of young minors too, depending on the circumstances (i.e. brutal dismemberment and torture in a serial killer fashion). War Crimes (genocide) too.
The only other thing I would consider is the fraud causing the financial ruin of family livelihoods on a large scale.
Basically crimes against communities with a focus on children get my blood up.
Or you visit Talos IV.
Other than that I'm against capital punishment. I'm against the prison-industrial complex. At the same time I really support the right of families and neighborhoods to protect themselves. |
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