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SleeplessInHannamdong
Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
You're confusing results with processes.
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If we're such demons why do silly parents send their kids off to be under our supervision and care?
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But go ahead, believe the "they all think we're" scum propaganda. That stuff is the same kind of misinformation that the Korea Times and the AES puts out.
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Suffice to say I think the AES influenced regulations, and I seriously question the influence of the AES on this were actual the conversion of a variety of interests from immigration officials, drug-testing firms, to companies, to hagwons, to teachers unions, to politicians to satisfy a panicked public yet really do nothing.
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Korea's a country of white envelopes and corporations and investment. They don't have time to deal with a 'moral' (racists have morals, bad ones, but they are morally driven) issue like racism.
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I agree fully with your views on all of the above arguments.
The final point is particularly salient. In my mind, all free-market nations, once a middle/leisure class emerges, find themselves trudging slowly away from the underlying core cultural value of "safety" toward that one "self-actualization". Where the industrialized West is on this spectrum in 2010 is further "ahead" of Korea in 2010, and that causes much tut-tutting and sighing by Westerners. (For example, on the mean you might hear a much higher percentage of Koreans describe homosexuality with terms like "dirty" or "AIDS", relative to, say, how Scandinavians would describe it.) That said, I would argue that the rate of cultural progression is much faster in Korea than it had been in the West. I fully believe that the US will legalize gay marriage "before" Korea does, in terms of a specific date on the calendar. But in terms of moving from the initial establishment of a leisure class to legalized gay marriage - which I believe is a more meaningful frame of comparison, Korea will prove to have done it much faster. One does have to hand it to Korea: it's speedy. Sometimes that's a bad thing - I am surprised at how quickly policy can be changed in response to public sentiment. That is a little scary to me. But for the most part, this country's addiction to speed (I am trying to stay on topic even if it's a pun) is a wonderful thing.
Regarding the E2vs F4 issue: now that I have the details I can't help but admit that my opinion was based on incomplete information. I had been under the impression that the F4 was predicated on parental ethnicity rather than nationality. As such I have zero issues with the policy and I would advise any other skeptics to resist the knee-jerk eye-rolling and give this a bit more consideration. Thanks for the explanation.
I'm not a regular here but from the back and forth on this thread I can imagine that you often find yourself playing a thankless role of devil's advocate. I appreciate that you responded to me and to others with level-headed intelligence. Much respect. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| SleeplessInHannamdong wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
You're confusing results with processes.
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If we're such demons why do silly parents send their kids off to be under our supervision and care?
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But go ahead, believe the "they all think we're" scum propaganda. That stuff is the same kind of misinformation that the Korea Times and the AES puts out.
...
Suffice to say I think the AES influenced regulations, and I seriously question the influence of the AES on this were actual the conversion of a variety of interests from immigration officials, drug-testing firms, to companies, to hagwons, to teachers unions, to politicians to satisfy a panicked public yet really do nothing.
...
Korea's a country of white envelopes and corporations and investment. They don't have time to deal with a 'moral' (racists have morals, bad ones, but they are morally driven) issue like racism.
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I agree fully with your views on all of the above arguments.
The final point is particularly salient. In my mind, all free-market nations, once a middle/leisure class emerges, find themselves trudging slowly away from the underlying core cultural value of "safety" toward that one "self-actualization". Where the industrialized West is on this spectrum in 2010 is further "ahead" of Korea in 2010, and that causes much tut-tutting and sighing by Westerners. (For example, on the mean you might hear a much higher percentage of Koreans describe homosexuality with terms like "dirty" or "AIDS", relative to, say, how Scandinavians would describe it.) That said, I would argue that the rate of cultural progression is much faster in Korea than it had been in the West. I fully believe that the US will legalize gay marriage "before" Korea does, in terms of a specific date on the calendar. But in terms of moving from the initial establishment of a leisure class to legalized gay marriage - which I believe is a more meaningful frame of comparison, Korea will prove to have done it much faster. One does have to hand it to Korea: it's speedy. Sometimes that's a bad thing - I am surprised at how quickly policy can be changed in response to public sentiment. That is a little scary to me. But for the most part, this country's addiction to speed (I am trying to stay on topic even if it's a pun) is a wonderful thing.
Regarding the E2vs F4 issue: now that I have the details I can't help but admit that my opinion was based on incomplete information. I had been under the impression that the F4 was predicated on parental ethnicity rather than nationality. As such I have zero issues with the policy and I would advise any other skeptics to resist the knee-jerk eye-rolling and give this a bit more consideration. Thanks for the explanation.
I'm not a regular here but from the back and forth on this thread I can imagine that you often find yourself playing a thankless role of devil's advocate. I appreciate that you responded to me and to others with level-headed intelligence. Much respect. |
The part a bolded was VERY well done. I could not agree more. Korea definitely has some catching up to do on things, that said it seems here that when they finally decide to change 1000 years of culture they do it and with a gusto. Well usually, people are STILL bumbling and jostling at the subway station. Are cell phones, shopping bags, and finger food inhibitors of social change?
Korea is indeed a balli balli nation- That's good, bad, and weird all in one.
Thank you for considering my points. Keep in mind that I do understand that there is plenty of jingoism and xenophobia here, but I also think that that gets a lot more play because its noisy, and does not necessarily reflect the view of Koreans. There are a lot of progressive folks here and a lot of people who have want to see Korea develop and believe that encouraging immigration and foreigners to come to Korea is in Korea's best interests.
I believe that a lot of these race issues are, just like everywhere else, cover for corporate/bureaucratic/political scheming. Think 9/11 Iraq and corporations oy Y2k and the companies out there selling you "Y2K compliance upgrades". Sure you get a bunch of people making a ruckus, but you also get average Kim at work, wishing those protesters would shut up, eating lunch with his foreign boss, and smiling, talking , and shaking the hand of the NET that teaches his kids at the Hagwon and thinking if he saves enough money he can send his kids to go study/live abroad for a year.
I believe, and many Koreans do, that Korea IS going to start having a greater number of immigrants here and that Koreans need to accept that. Some don't like, Some do. In the future I think we will see more F-series visas of non-ethnic Koreans.
At the same time I do have this caveat- If there is a big economic downtown or political crisis I would not be surprised to see some national/anti-foreign politician or political party make a move. Maybe its an anti-Japanese/3D worker (they took our jobs!) front and we get caught up in the mix. I will say that while in most countries these parties are 10% in Korea I could see them being 15-25% at least until the new generation really gets going.
Korea is a country trying to balance the whole 'Korea!!!' concept with the need to be a modern, global nation. Sometimes it tips one way, it may even tip over from time to time, but business always reasserts itself.
Thanks for taking my comments into consideration. |
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SleeplessInHannamdong
Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Korea is a country trying to balance the whole 'Korea!!!' concept with the need to be a modern, global nation. |
Indeed. I was thinking about this the other day in Itaewon. For those who've never been, every streetlight features a pair of waving, full-size flags: one Korean, one of a foreign nation with meaningful ties to Korea: US, UK, China, Japan, Turkey, Nigeria, etc. I like this quite a bit and find it fascinating. Expats and Koreans alike, whenever they stroll down the street, are presented with visual representations of Korea's sense of brotherhood with other nations - even Japan. Yet at the same time this sort of concept restricts how individual people can be defined, suggesting that a foreigner is a foreigner is a foreigner and can never be perceived of as part of the Korean community but merely a guest, forever held at arm's length.
Steel, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on Korea's strong sense of nationalism and its hunger to be acknowledged and accepted by the world as a leading nation. The nation seems never to be satiated by its people's achievements on the world stage. Where does this need for external validation come from, and what could possibly end it? Or has Korea's sense of its own identity and national history made this an intractable part of the Korean psyche? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| SleeplessInHannamdong wrote: |
Steel, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on Korea's strong sense of nationalism and its hunger to be acknowledged and accepted by the world as a leading nation. The nation seems never to be satiated by its people's achievements on the world stage. Where does this need for external validation come from, and what could possibly end it? Or has Korea's sense of its own identity and national history made this an intractable part of the Korean psyche? |
I think part of it comes from the hierarchical parts of Korean society. Right now Korea is at its middle to upper middle class phase and therefore is highly status conscious. IT has the leisure time to take the kids to soccer (World Cup) or Little League (WBC) and let the kids from garage band (KPop) but they're like those upper-middle class types who had to struggle to get there so they get overly driven about things.
Koreans seem to have this weird mix of feeling passed over yet feel that they are disproportionately accomplished and noticeable on the world stage. I don't know why, but it seems to be that way.
That and Korean people seem to think that there is something intangibly special about them. Kinda like the Finns or the Hebrews or whoever. Just that they've managed to exist sandwiched between China and Japan influences this.
These are just my thoughts and I've got nothing to empirically back them up, but its my 'flavor' of what's out there. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
It's not an exception based on rules, its an exception due to numbers.
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Did it ever occur to you that the test is to make you look good, not bad? As in being certified and bonded.
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I think I'm just going to take this oppurtunity to step out of the thread until it matures a bit more.
To answer your first set of responses, I would have to repeat things I said not three posts ago. To answer your second set of responses, I would have to chase your red herring. I'm sorry, I really don't mean this to be rude, but this thread has just become tiring. The repetition, red herrings, strawmans, and seemingly willful avoidance of key points is not making this a satisfying discussion, and I think my frustration with it is beginning to show in my responses. For that, I apologize.
Before stepping out, I'll lay out these points one last time:
The opinions of the Korean public are not an issue. For almost every stare, child pulled away, bewildered finger-point, arm-hair rubbing, and angry look directed at me, I've received a number of genuinely friendly hellos, free items at the corner store, free dinner and drinks, and helpful advice. There are good apples and bad, but neither has anything to do with government policies and politicians' comments.
The opinions and policies of hagwons and hagwons are also not an issue. Just like the public, there are good and bad hagwons and hagwon owners. I wouldn't expect to get fired for using less than my contractually allotted number of sick days for being hospitalized at every hagwon like I was at my first; my second boss is proof enough that that doesn't always happen. But again, the good and bad here have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
The issue, instead, is one of jingoism and xenophobia on the part of the government (well, the drug testing upon entry itself is blatantly stupid, too, but I'll let that slide). The special treatment given to children of Korean ex-pats combined with higher restrictions on E-2 visa holders would be forgivable racist policies, easily dismissed as an oversight, inefficient visa tiers, or something equally bureaucratically nonsensical... would be were it not for the comments and justifications that always accompany new E-2 visa regulations. Intentionally misleading the public by misrepresenting statistics to target foreigners is racist*, and it should be criticized. 95% of the time, when some newcomer jerkoff gets on a soapbox screaming "all Koreans this" and "all Koreans that," I would be right there with you, hand at the ready to whip out the apologetics. However, to do that for this issue is wildly inappropriate.
*When the population here gets a little more diverse, I'll consider changing this to 'jingoistic' instead.
And I just want to say this one last time, in the hopes that it won't be ignored again:
misrepresented statistics = bad
selectively targetted policy = bad
That's all. Enjoy the rest of the thread. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And let us not forget all the other visas Korea issues. |
Why should we consider the visas Korea issues that have nothing at all to do with teaching? The new regulations apply only to teachers, they were proposed as a response to a situation involving a teacher, and their falsely supported intention is to protect Korean children from... teachers. So what relevance do the factory workers, musicians, tourists, etc have to this issue?
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Because they are not Korean. Yet they don't have to take the drug tests or CBC's.
Either Koreans are racists or they are not. If they were racist and their visa policy was racist ALL foreigners would have to take these tests. But they don't.
It is just foreign TEACHERS and not even all foreign teachers only those on E-2 visas. In other words it is NOT ethnicity it is the JOB AND VISA. Discriminatory yes...RACIST no. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| [Intentionally misleading the public by misrepresenting statistics to target foreigners is racist*, a. |
Agreed. But that is not what is happening. They are changing requirements to the E-2 visa which only covers about 2-3% of the foreign population.
Targeting foreigners racist.
Changing visa requirements...not racist. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I have been drug tested for every job I've ever had. It seems to be not that big of a deal to me. It might not have been put into place for the best reasons, but in and of itself it's not a big deal. Just don't do drugs a month before, or even a few days if you are not a heavy user, and you will pass. |
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SleeplessInHannamdong
Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And let us not forget all the other visas Korea issues. |
Why should we consider the visas Korea issues that have nothing at all to do with teaching?
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Because they are not Korean. Yet they don't have to take the drug tests or CBC's.
Either Koreans are racists or they are not. If they were racist and their visa policy was racist ALL foreigners would have to take these tests. But they don't. |
I can see logic in both views here. I think both of you guys are responding to slightly different underlying questions.
Gelded seems to want to address the question, "Does this particular policy fail the racism sniff test?" As such, I agree with his interest in ceteris paribus comparisons, as a consideration of expats serves only to bring additional variables.
Urban seems to want to address the question, "Is Korean visa policy racist?" and as such, a consideration of all visa types would be imperative. Still, two different people addressing this same question could use the same material to justify completely different takeaways. One could say "yes - because there are more than zero policies in existence that discriminate based on race." someone else would say "no, because 99% of the policies do not discriminate based on race, and the few that do are unintentional anomalies."
At the end of the day, I think we should be less focused on our indignation over Korea's growing pains than on the intent, willingness, and desire of Korea's legislators to move past them. The issue is whether Korea is receptive to progressive legislative change. It certainly seems to be. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you've hit it, Sleepless. In a legal course back at my university, the professor took pains to explain that there are two kinds of discriminatory legislation. The first is one that's explicitly discriminatory and the other that is in effect discriminatory. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The issue, instead, is one of jingoism and xenophobia on the part of the government |
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| The opinions and policies of hagwons and hagwons are also not an issue. |
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| he opinions of the Korean public are not an issue |
When talking about government, especially an elected one in a capitalist society, opinions and policies of the public and companies ARE an issue.
If you cannot even grasp this then I don't know how to reason with you.
| Quote: |
| would be were it not for the comments and justifications that always accompany new E-2 visa regulations. Intentionally misleading the public by misrepresenting statistics to target foreigners is racist*, and it should be criticized. |
Below is a deep inhale of my sniff test-
Just because a politician says something doesn't mean that that's the reason they are actually doing it. I can fully believe that a politician will give some shoddy statistics and use a minority group to cover some shady action that benefits a constituent or generates publicity for himself.
I don't believe in politicians sitting in an office listening to he AES and going "By golly you're right, English teachers are a threat and we need to treat them worse so as to preserve the spirit if the Han".
If politicians and immigration officials were truly racist and not just corrupt sleazeballs you wouldn't be here or if you were you'd have to put up with a lot more than an annual HIV/Drug test.
This is what happens when some junior reporter breaks a story that they think will make a name for themselves and some fringe group sees an opportunity to make a name for itself. Parents call in, a politician or Govt. Agency head trying to make a name for themselves promises "swift action" at which point their dream of Gestapo like treatment for foreigners runs into the reality of Hyundai, Samsung, Coca-Cola, and about 500 other companies/industries and the whole thing gets boiled down to the lowest common denominator of an entry screening for NETs only.
It's the same song and dance as back home with immigrants/minorities. Just because Lou Dobbs manages to get the ear of a Justic Dept. official and weasel in a new clause into immigration restrictions or increased border patrol funding doesn't make the American government racist or the policy racist.
It makes it politics as usual.
Yes, some Latinos will carry on about how "All Whites hate us" or some such and 'they' never have to deal with immigration nonsense or whatever and that all whites think Mexicans are dirty criminals or something.
And then a latino like me will point out how 90% of whites don't seem to care and are having their kids study Spanish and love Mexican food and have hispanic friends and how a Swedish immigrant also has to fill out 50 forms and jump through hoops and gets searched and how even Americans returning from overseas stays in Mexico get searched. And yes Limbaugh and Lou Dobbs and Hannity 'hate them' but they don't represent everyone.
Really? You think you're demonized as a criminal by the government? Unreasonable entry procedures. Go be Mexican-American. What we go through is called "standard immigration procedure the world over."
What I'm really trying to get at 1) On a scale of racism 1-100 this rates like a 1/2. 2) The policy is de jure not racist only somewhat de facto racist and its not even racist. It's based on nationality (which is not the same as race). 3) That the pot test is actually sorta a good idea- If you can't get off the grass for 30 days you haven't left college and you shouldn't be teaching. 4)That the policy may have taken the form of racial discrimination but I think the underlying -ism is actually ageism. Really they just want to test anyone under 35. 5)That statements by politicians are not necessarily the reason they do things (I'm shocked! Shocked to find that politicians lie and deceive) and so on.
How's this for a sniff?
Why do politicians assume that us NETs like smoking grass? Probably for the same reason us NETs are shocked when we meet someone under 35 and they tell us that they've never smoked pot. Are you shocked if a Korean here tells you they've never poked smot? No. Are you shocked when some normal straight arrow Overseas Korean Christian type (I'd say 60% of em) tells you they've never smoked pot? No. Are you shocked when some wannabe gangta Cali Gyopo or Porn Starlet looking gyopo tells you they never have? I don't know, never met one that hasn't"
I mean coupled with all of this "Negative portrayal and misleading statistics" is the unshakable feeling that there have been more than a few NETs here who've brought up drugs or asked about it in casual conversation and they say something "Oh yeah tons of people smoke pot back home or I know tons of people in college who did it, etc. etc." That combined with movies and hip hop and well, let's be real when it comes to "They think we all do drugs."
I'd be more worried if none of them thought that we did drugs. That would be a serious failure to interpret movies, TV, and music. It would mean that for 95% of my English conversations with Koreans I might have well just said "Yahoo Serious Film Festival."
The other thing to remember is that unlike NETs 99% of Koreans aren't even aware of all of this. Believe it or not many missed this story.
Go ahead ask a random Korean what a person has to do to teach English here. I'm sure the answers will be funny.
The Big point I'm trying to make is that there are so many angles to look at this issue from that the 'racism' angle, while sexy, is at best 5% of the total equation.
I know I know 5% is 6% too much. My counter that is 5% of any evil is 6% too much, but people only get worked up about race. Don't be a sucka.
Maybe the Korean ESL industry realized that if you do these kind of things, waygooks will get worked up over them, scream racism, and have a high turnover rate keeping wages low.
Don't confuse the sin of racism with the sin of greed. Greed rules all. |
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