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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| It failed. No kidding. What now? Send them home? |
Abolish the welfare state.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Import millions of Arabs and Africans, put them on the dole and grow them accustomed to a standard of living they can't replicate on their own and then take it all away? What will the Vibrant Somali Community in Malmo do w/o welfare? That cure is worse than the disease. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Import millions of Arabs and Africans, put them on the dole and grow them accustomed to a standard of living they can't replicate on their own and then take it all away? What will the Vibrant Somali Community in Malmo do w/o welfare? That cure is worse than the disease. |
The Somalis are not really Arabs. There is more of a liability if you bring in Somalis. I don't mean to say there aren't great Somalis. There definitely are some great ones, but few of them have an education. How is that supposed to help Canada or France? In Canada, you are expected to have a minimum amount of education. Granted, we are supposed to accept refugees. We can't simply turn away refugees. Or can we? It's a tricky situation.
As far as Arabs, it depends on where they are from. Lebanese and Syrian people tend to assimilate and are from extremely educated societies.
About 86% of Syrians are educated and more Jordanians are educated.
The level of education in North Africa is lower than the Levantine countries.
Furthermore, religious identity over national identity is much stronger in Morocco than either Lebanon or Jordan, though Jordan has technically had less Western domination in comparison to Morocco. I am not saying the Moroccan people are not very nice. They are some of the nicest folks.
I just looked up the literacy rate in Morocco. It's less than 50%. If you compare that to the Levant which has around 90% of its population educated and more of a concept of secular nationalism, then you have a different picture. The majority of Arabs are North African, and many hate France.
To be fair, France is also too racist against North Africans. If I were North African and spoke perfect French and good English, and a French citizen, I would be more likely to have a fair shake in England than in France. I say this to say that France has also created some of the problems when it comes to integration.
I cannot comment on Africans. I just saw that Senegal has an education rate of only 60% for males. It's a lot lower for females. Morocco unlike other Arab countries has a large discrepancy based on education for males and females. In Algeria, the literacy rate is a lot higher than that of Morocco up to 75% for Algeria. I am assuming its from the oil money in Algeria and having a socialist regime.
In France, the majority of Arab Muslims supported the ban on the burqa.
Only a minority opposed it. France has to do more to integrate the Arabs it has through anti-racism programs, cracking down on crime, getting more employers to higher North African Frenchmen etc.... The paradigm of good Frenchmen, bad North Africans is not productive.
I am not for opening the flood gates of immigration. France is not, but there are serious problems in the banlieus with the ghettoization of some North Africans and acting in mentality like some African Americans who think it's okay to steal from white people because the whites were their oppressors allegedly. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
some North Africans and acting in mentality like some African Americans who think it's okay to steal from white people because the whites were their oppressors allegedly. |
Without going into a lot of details...I used to know some Tunisians and Algerians in London. 
They were particularly against French people because as they viewed it the French had robbed their countries and oppressed them during colonisation.
That may be true. However if you look at the history, the French annexation was a response to centuries of theft and piracy at the hands of the barbary pirates. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Furthermore, religious identity over national identity is much stronger in Morocco than either Lebanon or Jordan, though Jordan has technically had less Western domination in comparison to Morocco. I am not saying the Moroccan people are not very nice. They are some of the nicest folks. |
Whaaaaaaaat? Religious identity over national identity is much stronger in Morocco than Jordan or Lebanon? HELLO! Which country has a constitution BASED on relgious divisions? Lebanon! Which country has seen more years of war than peace in my lifetime? Lebanon! Why? one reason being- wait- religion!
I never met a Moroccan who ever said he was a muslim first, moroccan second (nor a jordanian who said that either). I HAVE met Lebanese who make it clear they are Christian and don't want to be associated with the Muslims.
And Jordan, well, no, it doesn't really have a religious divide or identity but it does have the whole West Bank vs. East Bank divide. And Jordan most definitely IS dominated by the West. Who do you think has been propping it up all these years? It is desert with no oil.
And what exactly do you mean by this? Morocco ain't shangri-la but it is a pretty stable, unified country. Is there some seperatist movement going on that only you know about adventurer? Well other than the Western Sahara (but I don't think you were thinking about that). Is there some huge call for an Islamic caliphate? Some movement to unify with the rest of the Islamic world? Be news to me (along with many others out there).
In regards to France, well, they're reaping what they've sown. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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After living in Grenoble as a student for over a year, I can't really say that I am surprised about this. THere is a large lower class muslim community near the Ecole Superieure de Commerce where I attended school. One of my friends from Norway was mugged by youths from the area and our year end picnic ended in a trip to the hospital because two Algerian French guys wanted some of our Alcohol and to join our picnic. After telling them no they got agressive with one of the girls in our group calling her a slutty *beep* for hanging around white men. They assumed she was arab when she was Mexican. The result was a few of us guys stepping in and one of the French guys taking out a small chain and breaking the jaw of one of my friends. No joke.
THe bars and clubs can also be sketchy. A lot of the muslim youths there are unemployed, uneducated and angry because of discrimination and racism by the French government. Even my Algerian classmate told me that she does not consider them Algerian because of their behavior. THe French also don't consider them French so these guys are up modedit creek without a paddle. I feel sorry for these guys, but I also couldn't help disliking them because of their boorish thug like behavior. The foreign Algerian/Morroccan uni students absolutely despise them because they say they give arabs a bad name in Europe. Things are going to get a lot uglier there and a VERY strong resurgence in nationalist political parties (like the BNP in Britain) is just around the corner I think. THey certainly gain ground when stuff like this happens. [/quote] |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Furthermore, religious identity over national identity is much stronger in Morocco than either Lebanon or Jordan, though Jordan has technically had less Western domination in comparison to Morocco. I am not saying the Moroccan people are not very nice. They are some of the nicest folks. |
| Quote: |
| Whaaaaaaaat? Religious identity over national identity is much stronger in Morocco than Jordan or Lebanon? HELLO! Which country has a constitution BASED on relgious divisions? Lebanon! Which country has seen more years of war than peace in my lifetime? Lebanon! Why? one reason being- wait- religion! |
http://www.arabvoices.net/2005_attitudesofarabs.pdf
Turn to page 30 of this PDF. It clearly shows the Lebanese, at least, even if they had a civil war do have a stronger concept of being Lebanese first and saying that first before a religion, but putting into that practice is very difficult because of sectarian grievances. I was surprised with Morocco with all that French influence. I expected them to be more liberal, but I was wrong.
In Lebanon it's not about being religious, it's about sectarian divisions and competition. It's not really so much about their beliefs.
I do believe more Lebanese are secular-minded in principle, but the sectarian forces hold more sway. However, I could be wrong on this score. I am saying that I find it surprising at how conservative Morocco is. We hear things about there being a lot of hashish and what not, but that's all superficial. In the same link I showed you, it shows that nationality stands out in Saudi Arabia, though it's very religious. That makes sense since Saudis can't easily marry non-Saudi Muslims starting in 2007.
At any rate, Muslims are not uniform. For example, though the British are one of the most tolerant towards Muslims, it's not as reciprocated by
the British Muslims. It seems like North African Muslims in France are more pro-Western in Europe.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion
| Quote: |
| I never met a Moroccan who ever said he was a muslim first, moroccan second (nor a jordanian who said that either). I HAVE met Lebanese who make it clear they are Christian and don't want to be associated with the Muslims. |
I have met more North Africans who would ask you your religion than Lebanese. The Lebanese don't directly ask you your religion so much.
It's true they are segregated, but asking someone their religion is passe.
I agree there are serious problems. I have seen North Africans who directly ask others what their religion is. It's kind of taboo in some Lebanese circles and sometimes with Jordanians. It's not taboo for North Africans to ask that question.
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| And Jordan, well, no, it doesn't really have a religious divide or identity but it does have the whole West Bank vs. East Bank divide. And Jordan most definitely IS dominated by the West. Who do you think has been propping it up all these years? It is desert with no oil. |
The Christians are a small minority. The division is somewhat between haves and have nots, Palestinian stock, bedouin stock. It's not simply about religious divides, but also attitudes towards religion. Not all countries with Muslims are uniform. There are cultural variations.
Jordan would probably collapse if it weren't for American aid, I agree.
| Quote: |
| And what exactly do you mean by this? Morocco ain't shangri-la but it is a pretty stable, unified country. Is there some seperatist movement going on that only you know about adventurer? Well other than the Western Sahara (but I don't think you were thinking about that). Is there some huge call for an Islamic caliphate? Some movement to unify with the rest of the Islamic world? Be news to me (along with many others out there). |
Yes, Morocco is a stable monarchy. It helps to have a monarchy in that region. The Islamic militants are under control by the Moroccan government. Don't get me wrong, I think Moroccans are wonderful people, they have wonderful food, a lovely country, but I was surprised that so many are very religious in identity. I didn't expect it with all that French influence.
In regards to France, well, they're reaping what they've sown. |
I agree that France has caused a lot of the problems it has with North Africans. I mean I do recall how a North African Frenchman complained that he had a hard time being taken seriously with an MBA since he was North African, so he went to England. I think people should consider the
prejudice against Arabs, and not simply just blame Arabs as evil at every turn. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
I agree that France has caused a lot of the problems it has with North Africans. I mean I do recall how a North African Frenchman complained that he had a hard time being taken seriously with an MBA since he was North African, so he went to England. I think people should consider the
prejudice against Arabs, and not simply just blame Arabs as evil at every turn. |
I agree that Europeans should consider the relevant history. They might also eventually/collectively decide to not give a f^*& about all that and choose to deal with the situation as it actually exists on the(ir) ground.
I guess we'll see which way it goes, huh? |
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