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Syria bans full Islamic face veils at universities
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
International law has to do with the protection of religious rights.


No, 'religious rights' are not a primary concern of 'international law'.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#International_law

Seems like wiki disagrees with you there.

bigverne wrote:

The banning of the burkha is an attack on extremist Islam


Oh really? That's news to me, I didn't know the burka stood of extremist Islam (terrorists). I understand you think it's up to you to decide what the poor Muslim women want but why do you have to force it on them? One would think that they could come to the same conclusion as you if they were convinced with logic. I'm curious, have the Muslim women in Western countries begged their statesmen to be liberated from their head-dresses by enacting a law against them?


Last edited by recessiontime on Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
You're going all over the place. And you didn't even answer my question. My goodness. What does the US constitution have anything to do with Syria? Nothing whatsoever.

Quote:
Minority rights is concerned with the rights of minority. Just because it's a democracy does not mean the majority of people can enact policy that tramples over the rights of minorities. This is how a democratic system is structured.


Yes, but a Muslim woman is a minority in Syria? Interesting.

Quote:
religious freedom is concerned with an individual's right to practice or not practice their religion.


A Muslim woman can most certainly practice Islam in Syria. She can pray, fast, give alms, and go to Mecca (in short, she can follow the 5 pillars with no problems whatsoever). I'm sure there are plenty of other Muslim practices she's free to do too.

There is nothing in the Koran or hadiths that state "A woman must go out with her face covered when she goes to class at a university". In fact hardly any Syrian women did this until 10-20 years ago, so it isn't exactly a local cultural practice. Thank you Saudi and Iran for spreading this dumb ass idea.

That being said, one argument certainly can be made: certain women may no longer feel comfortable going to university if they can't cover their faces. That will hold those women back. Fair enough. Question is: how many are in that position? And if this wasn't made illegal, how much faster would this backwards practice spread?

And yes, I stand by being a judgmental ass on this subject.


it's clear you selectively ignored that I mentioned international law.

International law has to do with the protection of religious rights. Syria is limiting the religious rights of Muslim women to wear their head dress. It seems you agree on this.

I understand your gut reaction to this is "I don't like it" but try to think it through before coming up with any reason to disagree with it.


1. They are allowed to wear hijab. A woman is certainly welcome to cover her head anywhere and any place in Syria. The ban is strictly on the niqab (the thing that covers a woman's face).

2. I didn't selectively ignore anything. International law has nothing to do with this. It is a strictly Syrian matter. Unless the Syria government is launching some genocide against its own people, i frankly don't give a damn what it does domestically. You, on the other hand, chose to ignore my whole spiel about how this law really does not limit the religious rights of Muslim women. I will repeat: The niqab is not a part of Islamic doctrine.

3. I DID come up with a reason to AGREE with the law: it will slow down the spread of a backwards practice that came from another culture. I also noted that Turkey's hardcore stance on secularism was a contributer to its post-Ottoman development.
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

�And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.� (Quran 24:31).


You have to understand that this passage is up for interpretation by Muslim people. Guarding their modesty and not displaying their beauty can mean wearing a niqab or a hijab. Wearing it is their religious right and it is being limited.

If you were impartial and consistent, you would be advocating on a similar ban on Christian crosses and Jewish Yamakas to "slow down the spread of a backward practice." Interestingly, you haven't done this.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Seems like wiki disagrees with you there.


I said it was not a 'primary concern' of international law, which clearly it isn't. Although maybe you should get on the phone to Ban Ki-Moon and tell him to shelve the nuclear proliferation talks and halt the war crimes tribunals at the Hague.....because the Syrians are preventing Muslim fathers from forcing their daughters to wear black shrouds. What an affront to 'religious rights'!

Quote:
That's news to me, I didn't know the burka stood of extremist Islam.


Than you are no doubt not particularly educated about Islam. There is a very clear relationship between the level of religious conservatism in a country, and the frequency of the burkha. You will rarely see if worn in places like Turkey, Bosnia, Malaysia and Indonesia, whereas it is very common in those religiously conservative and indeed extremist places like Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Gulf states, where there is an unnatural obsession with keeping women covered up at all times. There is also a marked correlation between the rise in Islamic extremism and political Islam and the growing popularity of both the hijab and the burkha.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
�And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.� (Quran 24:31).


You have to understand that this passage is up for interpretation by Muslim people. Guarding their modesty and not displaying their beauty can mean wearing a niqab or a hijab. Wearing it is their religious right and it is being limited.

If you were impartial and consistent, you would be advocating on a similar ban on Christian crosses and Jewish Yamakas to "slow down the spread of a backward practice." Interestingly, you haven't done this.


I do have an understanding that is up for interpretation. Unfortunately for them, the Syria government interprets it differently. Tough shit for that small segment of the population.

And your example is lame. Maybe if those crosses and yamakas become symbols of extremism and can hide a persons face, you would have an argument. Until then? Apples and oranges.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:

Than you are no doubt not particularly educated about Islam. There is a very clear relationship between the level of religious conservatism in a country, and the frequency of the burkha. You will rarely see if worn in places like Turkey, Bosnia, Malaysia and Indonesia, whereas it is very common in those religiously conservative and indeed extremist places like Saudi, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Gulf states, where there is an unnatural obsession with keeping women covered up at all times. There is also a marked correlation between the rise in Islamic extremism and political Islam and the growing popularity of both the hijab and the burkha.


Exactly. Big verne and I don't exactly see eye to eye on most matters related to Islam but on this we certainly do.
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry i thought you meant extremism as in religious violence. That's the way it is used most of the time, not to denote how extremely close they follow their bible.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You have to understand that this passage is up for interpretation by Muslim people. Guarding their modesty and not displaying their beauty can mean wearing a niqab or a hijab. Wearing it is their religious right and it is being limited.


There's also the little matter of if they don't wear it, they might be seen as something close to a *beep*, thus damaging the family's 'honour', which could possibly lead to a violent death.

You speak as if these women, many of them living in deeply conservative rural areas, had any choice in whether they chose to wear the burkha or the niqab. Your multiculturalist garbage might be excusable in the West, but protecting barbaric cultural practices under the guise of 'religious tolerance' is pathetic.

Quote:
Christian crosses and Jewish Yamakas to "slow down the spread of a backward practice." Interestingly, you haven't done this.


If you can show me one example of a Christian or Jew being murdered by their own family, or society for not wearing said attire, then you might have a point. As it is, the above is a most egregious example of cultural relativism.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

recession, have you ever been to the Middle East? I'm guessing you haven't. I have a hunch it would make you a lot less idealistic and more sympathetic to the Syrian government on this matter.

And of all the bad aspects of the Syrian government, even if I were to agree with you and say this law is wrong, I most definitely would say this one truly is near the bottom of the list of its "sins".
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:


And your example is lame. Maybe if those crosses and yamakas become symbols of extremism and can hide a persons face, you would have an argument. Until then? Apples and oranges.

recession, have you ever been to the Middle East? I'm guessing you haven't. I have a hunch it would make you a lot less idealistic and more sympathetic to the Syrian government on this matter.

And of all the bad aspects of the Syrian government, even if I were to agree with you and say this law is wrong, I most definitely would say this one truly is near the bottom of the list of its "sins".


Too bad you didn't live in the dark ages. Because in those times a simple thing like a cross was. Those things are still symbols of religious thought that have impact on law and policy all over the world.

Actually I have been there once. I doubt that really had any impact on me. This issue isn't just restricted to Syria, as you know several countries in Europe have already enacted laws against head dresses and many are jumping on the bandwagon. Even places like Australia are salivating over the potential ban of it over there.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:


And your example is lame. Maybe if those crosses and yamakas become symbols of extremism and can hide a persons face, you would have an argument. Until then? Apples and oranges.

recession, have you ever been to the Middle East? I'm guessing you haven't. I have a hunch it would make you a lot less idealistic and more sympathetic to the Syrian government on this matter.

And of all the bad aspects of the Syrian government, even if I were to agree with you and say this law is wrong, I most definitely would say this one truly is near the bottom of the list of its "sins".


Too bad you didn't live in the dark ages. Because in those times a simple thing like a cross was. Those things are still symbols of religious thought that have impact on law and policy all over the world.


Dude, can you focus on relevant issues? Is it really that hard? And yes, of course Christian doctrine has played a role in law and policy- just like Islamic doctrine has in Islamic socities. What does this have to do with banning the niqab?? I'm not bashing Islam, just some bastardization of it (yes, obviously that's my own opinion, I know).

Quote:
Actually I have been there once. I doubt that really had any impact on me. This issue isn't just restricted to Syria, as you know several countries in Europe have already enacted laws against head dresses and many are jumping on the bandwagon. Even places like Australia are salivating over the potential ban of it over there.


Why do you use the term head dresses? Please use the proper terms (hijab, niqab, burka). No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:
ED209 wrote:
Why are women wearing full face veils going to university in the first place? How many Islamic laws are these women breaking?


You can say the same thing to Christian women.


He has a point, though. Your point doesn't work clearly. Christian women don't cover their faces, and Syrian women who cover their hair and generally interact with males on some level are not banned, obviously, and are encouraged to attend the univerities. The women wearing the face veil are viewed as threats to a secular regime. I don't like these veils they are a cultural export from Saudi Arabia, which financed its intepretation of Islam through petro-dollars. I don't dislike Saudis, I like many of them. I don't support veils. It's not part of Syrian culture or history. It doesn't belong there, period. I would also like Saudi Arabia to also become more moderate than it has become. It has started checking the powers of the mullahs.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
You have to understand that this passage is up for interpretation by Muslim people. Guarding their modesty and not displaying their beauty can mean wearing a niqab or a hijab. Wearing it is their religious right and it is being limited.


There's also the little matter of if they don't wear it, they might be seen as something close to a *beep*, thus damaging the family's 'honour', which could possibly lead to a violent death.

You speak as if these women, many of them living in deeply conservative rural areas, had any choice in whether they chose to wear the burkha or the niqab. Your multiculturalist garbage might be excusable in the West, but protecting barbaric cultural practices under the guise of 'religious tolerance' is pathetic.

Quote:
Christian crosses and Jewish Yamakas to "slow down the spread of a backward practice." Interestingly, you haven't done this.


If you can show me one example of a Christian or Jew being murdered by their own family, or society for not wearing said attire, then you might have a point. As it is, the above is a most egregious example of cultural relativism.


Syria is a dictatorship if someone kills someone for not wearing a burqa and the government finds out, he may possibly disappear. If he wants to take that chance, it's up to him. I don't hear much about honor killings in Syria. I hear more about it in Jordan. Syria is not so tribal like Jordan.
As far as Jews and honor killings,

I have heard for your information that historically in the mediterranean Christians have engaged in honor killings. I remember seeing that in a report, but it's far more common amongst Muslims, but this has nothing to do with Syria's recent law! It may become more common in Israel as Israel goes more and more into the Orthodoxy mentality.

This is a symptom of this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1399287/posts
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books.


That may be all as far as national bans, but I think it's worth noting that Belgium and Germany both have local bans, and that a national ban is pending in Belgium's legislative system.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books.


That may be all as far as national bans, but I think it's worth noting that Belgium and Germany both have local bans, and that a national ban is pending in Belgium's legislative system.


In Belgium, they are contemplating a ban on face veils, not the hijab or head-covering. Generally, at issue is not the hijab except in France and Turkey, generally. People are having trouble with the burqa, niqab or face veil.

The face veil is an unfortunate Saudi export. They used those billions they gained from the West to spread to more moderate Muslim countries the niqab, and Syria has responded by banning it in many important spheres of the country, and France has banned it completely. Wahhabism by the way didn't necessarily dominate Saudi Arabia until the pro-British
Sauds made an alliance with the Wahhabis to gain power, so this mess the West is dealing with is partially its own creation and the Western and Arab masses have suffered from it. Big Verne should keep that in mind. He does make a point that the burqa is connected to an extremely fanatical form of Islam, and he sees the nuances, I will give him that.

Also, French born European women have worn the face veil after marrying some North African Muslims. With this ban, that will be much less likely to happen where a woman covers her face and doesn't interact at all with the people of her own background. That is not healthy for French society or those women, and I don't feel bad if this French law prevents those fanatical type men from being able to have their women wearing a face veil in the name of personal freedom.

En passant, many Muslim French people support the ban, but weren't so convinced about the head-covering issue. Some decades you wouldn't see any North African Muslim wearing a face veil. It was an Arabian Gulf thing. I don't say it to insult Arabian Gulf people. I just don't favor the face veil in being nice. I think the head covering should suffice if the women want to wear it and be pious. It's not part of French culture and historically not really part of North African Muslim culture. It doesn't help people integrate, period.
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