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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| But your quote doesn't describe a free market. That a free market exists, is basically what all of my prognostications rest upon. I couldn't agree more that we should abolish reserve banking and fiat money. |
I'm saying that if the oceans were privatized it would be bankers who would buy it. It wouldn't be organizations with an interest in keeping fish stocks sustainable. It would be Goldman and Blackstone. They'd rape it senseless.
People like you and I who see the potential good in markets have to accept that our theories are not relevant to reality. I don't like it any more than you. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: |
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So, every single kite I fly has to be prefaced with "If the banksters didn't have a stranglehold on the means of exchange, here is what I think the solution should be....."?
I think few people think the banking elite is a good thing. Do we all take it as a given that the govt backed banking cartel should be abolished?
Hands up if you don't. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| So, every single kite I fly has to be prefaced with "If the banksters didn't have a stranglehold on the means of exchange, here is what I think the solution should be....."? |
Yeah. I don't like it either. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
There is a simple solution. Privatize the ocean.
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Who would buy it?
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You don't have to sell things to privatize them. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| brickabrack wrote: |
You really have to ask yourself, "how much do I give a flying fact about the things that I do on a daily basis that contribute to this mess?".
Isn't that what's really going on?
Do you have to wrestle merchants to NOT give you a plastic bag?
Do you think twice about buying something that continues to proliferate the consumption of plastic products? |
I do struggle with these questions often. I carry around plastic bags for when I shop. I do have to battle with the clerks to refuse a plastic bag. I get upset with myself if I am fumbling for my wallet and meanwhile she has already put the purchase in a bag, although I am not beyond removing it and putting it in my own bag.
Then I like to buy an item from the bakery, which is often on a piece of paper, and then they put it in a cardboard or styrofoam box, and that in a plastic bag. I don't even want to buy such things anymore because of all that.
How about when you buy a box of cookies, and each cookie is individually wrapped? That drives me crazy! Korea is big on that.
The OP from a year or two back has traumatized me. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
There is a simple solution. Privatize the ocean.
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Who would buy it?
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You don't have to sell things to privatize them. |
So just how would that work? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| There is a simple solution. Privatize the ocean. |
Who would buy it? |
You don't have to sell things to privatize them. |
So just how would that work? |
The possibilities are endless. Simply put, we should give these assets to the people to manage. Socialism always fails. Government always fails. Only the free market can manage environmental assets.
A quick example:
Let's say we want to privatize a small river, maybe one that flows into a larger one like the Mississippi. The river lies entirely in one state, for simplicity's sake in this example. The state, of course, owns the river at present and allows it to be polluted by passing laws that do not ban pollution, but allow it, by building plants that dump sewage into it etc. The state also owns some park land along the river. There are many real world examples of rivers currently owned and managed by government that fit such a scenario.
A simple way to privatize this river would be to create a corporation to own and manage the river, its banks and the park land. The state government would have to do this, to transfer state ownership to private ownership. They would also select an initial board of directors, who would in turn hire one or more managers.
The directors could include citizens, business people, environmentalists etc. Hopefully, no politicains. The corporation would be charged with managing the river and its associated lands: banks, wetlands, parks etc. for a profit, and and charged with keeping it clean.
Of course, the best way to profit is to sell access to fishing, boating, other recreation and to sell clean water to towns, cities and other users. If the owners allow the river or its lands to be polluted, they would be unprofitable.
To make sure that the river serves the interests of the people, the shares in the corporation could be distributed equally to the citizens of the state, or perhaps a limited subscription of, say, up to 100 shares per person at a minimal price, maybe $10 per share, to make sure that the owners were actually interested, and raise additional working capital.
Further, the shares could be restricted and non-salable for an initial period - say 5 years. There could be a maximum ownership clause in the articles of incorporation to prevent anyone from taking too large of a position in the business at a later date (1%, 0.1%, whatever).
Shareholders could accrue benefits, even if the profits were scanty, such as discounted or even some free access to certain recreational activities and sites. Shareholders could be encouraged to help monitor the river for polluters, and other activist roles.
Such a resource, privately managed in the free market and out of the control of the rapacious socialists would be cleaner and serve the interests of the general public. At the same time, the business could prevent some detrimental uses that governments do not have the willpower to resist. This can be done at a profit, with no need for taxation.
There are an infinite variety of possibilities available in setting up ownership structures for free market management of environmental resources. It is essential that the government be removed completely, socialism abolished in all its forms, and the free market be allowed to set rules that will eventually bring an end to all non-accidental, man made forms of pollution. |
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