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E-2s for Filipino teachers?
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huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:16 pm Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

Oh please. The typical poli sci grad from Towson State is not qualified to teach Business English. "For here or to go" is not Business English.

He is far more familiar with basic business vocabulary than someone not from a native country.

Not good enough to teach it. Not that 3rd graders need Business English.

Quote:

cite?

You first.

You made the claim. You back it up.

Quote:

Most of your students are irrelevant. The fact remains that plenty of parents are sending their kids abroad every year to study english, with the intention of going to study English there, and furthering their careers and opportunities. Do you think they're spending all this money so on the off chance they meet a foreigner they can talk about the local sports team?

Universities use English test scores for admittance. Top companies use English test scores for hiring. Doesn't mean they're going to be using it with native speakers. It's like American boys playing little league baseball - how many are going to make a career of it? Very few.

Quote:

Common sense. Unless the person is seeking out foreign media to consume at the same rate that a native speaker would, their exposure is less.

There's plenty of English media in places like the Philippines. Do we disallow ignorant native speakers who don't read and only watch the Hills?

Quote:

I'm saying that most native speakers are actually far more familiar with their language than they think they are. They are often thrown off by technical terms they don't use everyday, but the concept is something they are quite familiar with and can explain given an opportunity to do so.

Doesn't mean they can teach it better. Native speakers use a lot of incorrect grammar. Ask your average FOB to explain conditionals and see what happens.

Quote:

I said there certainly shouldn't be a blanket allowance, and you haven't made a case for that at all. The kind of Pinoy you're talking about is quite rare, and not remotely representative of the overall population.

Where have I ever said there should be a blanket allowance? I don't even think Westerners should get a blanket allowance. I've met quite a few Pinoys with native level fluency. I don't think it's quite as rare as you think.

Korea should be more concerned about getting qualified teachers than magical "native" speakers.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:21 pm Post subject:

misher wrote:

Quote:

Most of my students are not interested in international business or living overseas. And again, you're ignoring the vast majority of trade which occurs with other Asian countries, where English is an L2 as well.

If you're talking about middle school/elemtary kids then sure.

Which is where most E-2s teach.

Quote:

Uni students and adults are a different story however. As someone who has taught adults/uni students for the past 3 years I can say that English within a private sector setting is their number one priority.

Not at my school. The Business English classes were the lowest attended English classes we had. Less than 10 students in most of the sections. And they were no where near the level needed to realistically be studying Business English.

Quote:

When I worked in Germany at an MNC I had German and Dutch co-workers who spoke near flawless English (pretty much perfect) ALWAYS ask me about how this sounds and how I can reword this and that. THeir grammar was flawless. It was their word collocations/idioms that they were using that sometimes just sounded off. The only way I could help them was to rely on my native speaker instinct which has been honed over decades.

Learn to use a corpus.

Quote:

I'm not saying I'm superman. I'm just a native speaker. but if these guys needed assistance here and there there is no way a tagalog speaker or Indian, whose English was acquired mainly in their country of origin, will be able to answer such complex questions.

Very few Koreans are at that level. I certainly wouldn't hire a Western FOB to teach that level.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You made the claim. You back it up.

Blah blah blah. You've been making uncited claims since your first post, most of which are started with "my friend.." or "I've seen".

Quote:

Do we disallow ignorant native speakers who don't read and only watch the Hills?

We might find common ground to agree there.

Quote:

Doesn't mean they can teach it better. Native speakers use a lot of incorrect grammar. Ask your average FOB to explain conditionals and see what happens.

Give him an example and he probably can. The fresh off the boat is likely unfamiliar with the technical names of various parts of grammar as I pointed out. However, given an example they can probably explain it quite well.

Quote:

Cite it. Who you've met is irrelevant.

Quite simply put you've been rattling off anecdote after anecdote yet not really provided anything that would compel any kind of a mass change in immigration policy. You haven't really said anything that would indicate that a pinoy is somehow an overall better english teacher. Again, just because someone has studied something it doesn't make them a better teacher of it.

You're the one arguing to change the status quo and your big evidence is people you've met and your opinion of them with no hard data. We can all sit around and cherry pick examples. I could talk about the pinoy I met in emart whose accent and grammar was so impenetrable I had to ask him to repeat himself after 95% of his sentences, and who continually pushed me to come to my house so I could apparently help him immigrate to Canada, or we could talk about the super stars you've met. Neither one paints a clear picture. As I pointed out posts ago, E2s should be for people who can demonstrate they can teach English at a sufficient level.

Quote:

Which is where most E-2s teach.

Cite it

Quote:

Very few Koreans are at that level.

Cite it

Epik_Teacher

Joined: 28 Apr 2010

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject:

When they start to bring in "cheap help" from India, and other countries I think it's the death knell of the "ESL industry" anyway. It was going to happen sooner or later.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:30 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

You made the claim. You back it up.

Blah blah blah. You've been making uncited claims since your first post, most of which are started with "my friend.." or "I've seen".

I've provided cites.

I said they're talking about allowing trained English teachers in. You disagreed and I proved you wrong.

I cited an article that showed Tagalog speakers have the highest test scores of any native language.

Everything you've talked about has been the hypothetical business man or advanced speaker. People who the average Western E-2 isn't qualified to teach.

Quote:

Doesn't mean they can teach it better. Native speakers use a lot of incorrect grammar. Ask your average FOB to explain conditionals and see what happens.

"If I were you, I wouldn't say that."

Explain please.

Quote:

Quite simply put you've been rattling off anecdote after anecdote yet not really provided anything that would compel any kind of a mass change in immigration policy. You haven't really said anything that would indicate that a pinoy is somehow an overall better english teacher. Again, just because someone has studied something it doesn't make them a better teacher of it.

Nor does being a native speaker. But I'd rather have a trained teacher with a few English problems than an untrained native speaker.

Read these and get back to me:

http://www.moussu.net/nnest/articles/Mahboob.pdf
http://www.shawnashapiro.com/courses/wrpr0102a-s10/GlobalEng_CELE.pdf
http://eltj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/46/4/340
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118782875/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q8p2623610v35047/
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=PjkB-4wQ2T0C&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=non+native+teachers+efl&ots=RACa4sj2h3&sig=JMmOd68M3vyv0FZ1RWQqhSU2SXw#v=onepage&q=non%20native%20teachers%20efl&f=false

No where are the cites for the BS you're spouting?

Quote:

As I pointed out posts ago, E2s should be for people who can demonstrate they can teach English at a sufficient level.

Since when have E-2s from Western nations had to "demonstrate they can teach English at a sufficient level"? I'd think being a certified English teacher from the Philippines is more of a qualification than merely graduating from college.

If Pinoy teachers are so unqualified, why do so many Koreans go to the Philippines to study English?

Quote:

Which is where most E-2s teach.

Cite it

Quote:

Very few Koreans are at that level.

Cite it

Do I have to educate about everything? How many Business English teachers have you met in Korea? How many advanced speakers have you met? Doesn't take a genius to figure these things out.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:05 am Post subject:

Quote:

I've provided cites.

I said they're talking about allowing trained English teachers in. You disagreed and I proved you wrong.

You've provided one citation, and only on the second go around because you didn't provide the right one first.
It's also a 2 year old story talking about a future event. You haven't provided anything current.

Quote:

I cited an article that showed Tagalog speakers have the highest test scores of any native language.

I never questioned that, but being able to take a test doesn't mean you're actually good at the language.

Quote:

People who the average Western E-2 isn't qualified to teach.

Cite it

Quote:

Nor does being a native speaker. But I'd rather have a trained teacher with a few English problems than an untrained native speaker.

and I'd rather have a trained native speaker.
As I said, compare like to like.

Quote:

I didn't say they currently were, I also didn't say that shouldn't change. Try to keep up.

Quote:

If Pinoy teachers are so unqualified, why do so many Koreans go to the Philippines to study English?

Because it is cheaper. How many rich families are in Korea vs middle class and poor families? Are their desires really all that different regardless of class? Correlation doesn't equal causation. You should have learned that in your first year of university.

Quote:

Do I have to educate about everything? How many Business English teachers have you met in Korea? How many advanced speakers have you met? Doesn't take a genius to figure these things out.

Quite a few, but who I've met is irrelevant. You've made a claim, cite it.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:22 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

Nor does being a native speaker. But I'd rather have a trained teacher with a few English problems than an untrained native speaker.

and I'd rather have a trained native speaker.
As I said, compare like to like.

You keep crying for cites and never provide any of your own. I gave you cites regarding native speaker fallacy. Did you read them?

Start with your first assumption: English is an official language of the Philippines. That makes them native speakers. Prove otherwise.

And then show us your native skills and explain this:

"When I go to school, I always take the bus."

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