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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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JF, please. That's not fair. You already know his answer will be 'yes' to all of the above.......
Now, about those pm's....... |
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JFuller317
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| As much as I'd love to, and while posting PMs isn't nearly as bad as wishing for a random stranger to get fired and lose his livelihood over a disagreement on the internet, I feel like I'd be stooping pretty low by doing so. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| When he told you that you missed the screaming, he was stating that she screamed. He may have skipped it in the first post, but he clarified. I don't see why you can't understand this simple fact. |
I asked If I had missed it and got the sarcasm in return, His one and only mention to "screaming" came on page 7 after he had used "vitriol" twice, and "ill will" once when spaeking about her conversation.
HIs remark on page 7 on the screaming but was also off hand, and not exactly memorable, espcially when its the first mention of this new fact in an otherwise repetiive rant of his feelings on the "unfair" situation
Regardless her screaming would be a direct result of him ducking her calls Wouldn't it" |
7 pages or not, he did say that she screamed at him. There is no excuse for that behavior. There are plenty of reasons that he couldn't have answered his phone. We know the real reason, but she didn't. Maybe his phone was in a different room? Maybe he was in the shower? Maybe he ran outside for some milk?
It does depend on the situation. My coteacher often doesn't charge her phone, and this was not good when I first moved here and she was supposed to help me that first month. There have been dozens of occasions when she didn't answer her phone when she was supposed to be (as in, we'd arranged it so that she'd answer her phone beforehand) available. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JFuller317 wrote: |
Hey Seoulio, a little thought experiment for you. I know it's not your forte, but this one isn't too difficult, so I think you can handle it.
Suppose I had done what you say I should have done and had specifically asked "So I don't have to come in?" and had been told that I could stay home. Suppose I then planned a four-day weekend out of town, made traveling arrangements, paid money for various travel-expenses, etc.
Suppose in this scenario, I got a call on Thursday saying that the school had made a mistake and that they should have told me I had to come in to deskwarm on those days.
In your opinion:
1) If I got the call before I got to the train station, would I be obligated to cancel all my plans and head back?
2) If I got the call while I was already on the train, would I be obligated to get off, turn around and head back to deskwarm?
3) If I got the call when I was already in another city, would I be obligated to take the first train back and cancel the rest of my weekend plans in order to go deskwarm? |
K, your little jab aside it depends on a couple factors
1) "Stay home" (when it comes to off days where you would otherwise be working) often means you can stay home unless something changes
2) there are many times where teachers are given home days but are specifically told not to leave the city ( or at the very least, the country)
3) On school off days they are within thier rights to recall you, but that should be in an emergency situation only ( which would not generally happen anyway if they had already cleared you for those days off)
So in your hypothetical situation youd ned to know your prinicpals policy on that. Are those days then free to be planned as you see fit? SOmetimes the school even has it written into the codes of conduct that you are not, and that ANY trip during regular school periods ( as in not during vacation breakc must be approved by your school
i DO NOT AGREE with this, and I have fought against this ( surprised???) none the less it is an archaic rule ( much like deskwarming) that some schools expect you to follow.
So now we have the POSSIBLE factor, is your school aware that you are going to BUsan and have they said "yeah, no problem, those days are off anyway.
SO now we are at your scenario, you have been told those days are off, you have told them "yep, going to BUsan with some buddies, for some down time after some long relaxing etc" and THEN they yank your right
You now have a double confirmation that you were okayed to go on that trip, and it is in bad faith for them to yank it.
if you were going to lose money, and acted in Good faith then you are well within your rights to stand your ground. Here yu are not defying your bosses, you went out of your way to ensure that the trip was cool with them. Mistake or not by that point it IS their mistake, and it should not cost you anything.
So to answer you specifically:
Question 1)
I don't love the choice of "obligated" technically you are obligated, a boss can change thier mind sadly, should you have to, absolutely not.
Question 2
On the train ( with permission to go) no, too little to late, you are past the point of no return
Question 3
Again no, your vacation is already started and you were given permission to go. BUT OF COURSE then theres the magic question "do you have that in writing" or "can you prove we said that"
Look I am in no way saying that bosses always act fairly rationally or logically, and in Korea its commonplace to act against all 3 of those qualities ( often simultaneously) however
1) you KNEW your schools policy on deskwarming
2) you went out of your way to ensure you didnt ask the magic question that could have solved all your issues before they started
3) you acted like a spoiled child by ducking her phone calls after pulling point number 2
4) you got into a verbal screaming match with the teacher ( yes she started it, thats not a justification)
You have had a chip on your shoulder againt the POE, the school for deskwarming for months and part of you was ( I am guessing) secretly hoping that this would be the result so that you could "show them" otherwise the harm in confirming would have been what?
Do you have any more questions for me? |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
JF, please. That's not fair. You already know his answer will be 'yes' to all of the above.......
Now, about those pm's....... |
wrong |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| When he told you that you missed the screaming, he was stating that she screamed. He may have skipped it in the first post, but he clarified. I don't see why you can't understand this simple fact. |
I asked If I had missed it and got the sarcasm in return, His one and only mention to "screaming" came on page 7 after he had used "vitriol" twice, and "ill will" once when spaeking about her conversation.
HIs remark on page 7 on the screaming but was also off hand, and not exactly memorable, espcially when its the first mention of this new fact in an otherwise repetiive rant of his feelings on the "unfair" situation
Regardless her screaming would be a direct result of him ducking her calls Wouldn't it" |
7 pages or not, he did say that she screamed at him. There is no excuse for that behavior. There are plenty of reasons that he couldn't have answered his phone. We know the real reason, but she didn't. Maybe his phone was in a different room? Maybe he was in the shower? Maybe he ran outside for some milk?
It does depend on the situation. My coteacher often doesn't charge her phone, and this was not good when I first moved here and she was supposed to help me that first month. There have been dozens of occasions when she didn't answer her phone when she was supposed to be (as in, we'd arranged it so that she'd answer her phone beforehand) available. |
Yeah NYC and we have no idea if she started calm, and got into screaming as his commenst were made etc.
I am not saying she was in the right either way |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| OculisOrbis wrote: |
JF, please. That's not fair. You already know his answer will be 'yes' to all of the above.......
Now, about those pm's....... |
wrong |
Wow, I guess you are the master strategist when it comes to online BB's. How did you ever get the upper hand on this one?........  |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JFuller317 wrote: |
| As much as I'd love to, and while posting PMs isn't nearly as bad as wishing for a random stranger to get fired and lose his livelihood over a disagreement on the internet, I feel like I'd be stooping pretty low by doing so. |
1) I never said that I WISH you get fired, i said that you SHOULD be fired
2) Livelihood? Odds are you walk into any hagwon say I can start tomorrow, and you are employable"
3) If you were that concerned about your livelihood then cancelling an inexpensive trip to Busan is more important than your "prinicples"
4) If you were that convcerned about your livelihood you would confirm plans and facts before making plans.
5) if you were that concerned about your livelihood you'd have shut up when your teacher called.
6) if you were that concerned about your livelihood, you would have gottn back to school
7) if you were that concerned about your livelihood youd have answered your phone earlier
Eight) As I Said, YOU have my full permission to post the PMs so don't cop out, my bet is that you don't have them
I could post those Pms...................but no I won't that would be low.
That the equivalent of "one more time and you'll regret it" or "wait til your father get's home"
If you're going to make a "threat" then just do it, otherwise you are either
a) all talk ( i could do it, but I won't)
b) a liar ( ihave pm's when actually you don't) |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| OculisOrbis wrote: |
JF, please. That's not fair. You already know his answer will be 'yes' to all of the above.......
Now, about those pm's....... |
wrong |
Wow, I guess you are the master strategist when it comes to online BB's. How did you ever get the upper hand on this one?........ |
I've had it since post 1 |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JFuller317 wrote: |
| CentralCali, who no one likes. |
I have quite a few friends, each of them a cut far above you. FYI: You do not constitute everyone. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| OculisOrbis wrote: |
JF, please. That's not fair. You already know his answer will be 'yes' to all of the above.......
Now, about those pm's....... |
wrong |
Wow, I guess you are the master strategist when it comes to online BB's. How did you ever get the upper hand on this one?........ |
I've had it since post 1 |
The 'one' I was referring to was the 'one' I quoted...not the rest of tripe you posted.
And JF's reluctance to post the pm's - it is likely out of consideration to you and the rest of us. Your fragile ego couldn't handle the criticism, we'd be inundated with a flurry of ridiculous posts by you in an effort to regain your perceived 'upper hand' and by doing so, reduce the already low opinions of you held by many here. Thanks, JF. I understand now.
Last edited by OculisOrbis on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JFuller317
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Since when has Seoulio ever had the upper hand in any argument in any thread?  |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| JFuller317 wrote: |
| Since when has Seoulio ever had the upper hand in any argument in any thread? |
Every time, in every thread, in every post (In his own mind, but unfortunately he has a problem backing it up in print).
Last edited by OculisOrbis on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SpaceGhoster
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JFuller317 wrote: |
Hey Seoulio, a little thought experiment for you. I know it's not your forte, but this one isn't too difficult, so I think you can handle it.
Suppose I had done what you say I should have done and had specifically asked "So I don't have to come in?" and had been told that I could stay home. Suppose I then planned a four-day weekend out of town, made traveling arrangements, paid money for various travel-expenses, etc.
Suppose in this scenario, I got a call on Thursday saying that the school had made a mistake and that they should have told me I had to come in to deskwarm on those days.
In your opinion:
1) If I got the call before I got to the train station, would I be obligated to cancel all my plans and head back?
2) If I got the call while I was already on the train, would I be obligated to get off, turn around and head back to deskwarm?
3) If I got the call when I was already in another city, would I be obligated to take the first train back and cancel the rest of my weekend plans in order to go deskwarm? |
If the school says "stay home, you don't have come in", that an entirely different situation. Assuming it's a vacation day is where the problem comes in. Unless the school tells us directly that it's a vacation day for us, we should always come into school.
Now the reality of the situation, (and this something we've all done at one time or another), is that sometimes we don't ask because we don't want to know the answer. That's willful blindness, and that's where problems arise. If I know the students have a half day and go home at lunch, and I lay low and just don't bring it up with any of the teachers, I can just go home at lunch. If I'm right, and we have the time off, no problem. If I'm wrong, I can say I just misunderstood, or "no one told me".
The beginning of Office Space is a perfect example: Peter sees his boss moving across the office towards his desk. Peter knows that Bill is going to ask him to come in on the weekend. So Peter tries to save and shut down everything, and get out of his desk before Bill can ask him. If Bill doesn't ask him, he "didn't know", and thus doesn't have to do it.
We can all relate to that situation, and cooler side of the brain says that's unfair, weekends should always be free time. But the reason Peter runs, is that he knows as part of the job description he agreed to, he has to come in if asked to. The real problem of course ends up being he hates his job, but doesn't think he can do anything else.
It's always going to be unpopular to say that people should do their job. It's like stopping someone from going to a party, because you should study. It might be the right choice, but it's not the fun choice.
I'm not directing this at anyone specific, but the biggest trap to fall into being here, is to let it destroy your work ethic. This job is ridiculously easy compared jobs back home, especially if you want to be a real teacher. If you don't keep busy or take on extras, it's going to be hard to keep up when you go back.
Then there's the people that just came here for an easy ride, and to party. We all know these people, they were there in University too. I have a good number of friends back home that are awesome guys, great to party with, but I never in a million years hire for a job in a business I owed. Here is no different. I've listened to friends here talk about how hard they work on their lessons, how much extra stuff the school gives them, and how busy they are... then I see their lessons. Usually, they're a hand out from boggle's and sometimes a 3-4 screen powerpoint (pictures).
If anyone's done the online program: When they first started it, it was 60k/50min. They wanted us teaching grade 5 and 6 from the textbook, using Microsoft live meeting. One class = half a chapter. Both my girlfriend and I signed up for 2 classes a week. For the first couple weeks, we spend 3 hours a night making 35-40 slide presentations that the kids could interact with. They had all the text from the book, pictures, dialogues, puzzles, sing-a-longs, everything we needed for 50min. Usually, we couldn't even finish them. Then we started talking with friends that were teaching the same grades. We decided the 6 of us we each do 2 of the remaining lessons, and then share them all. That would mean way less work for all of us. So we did that, and what I got from all of the others was unbelievable. Twenty pages of just pictures, with the second page being the picture and the answer. Or picture tracing and multiple choice questions with no related material. We couldn't use any of them, so we just ended up making our own anyways. When talked about the lessons afterwards, they would always say how awesome everyone's were and how it saved them the 4 hours a night they working on them. Again, these are all awesome friends and nice people, that would help you move between cities if you asked. But they're lazy and they don't even realize it. Again, I don't know anyone here, so I have no clue who is like this. But if you read this, and think "What's wrong with that?" Maybe you should think about that for a minute or two.
Fuller: I notice you end your scenario and options two and three with "deskwarm". If it was a camp instead, would that change what you would do? |
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JFuller317
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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That's a good question, actually. In that situation, that would mean that I had a camp that nobody had remembered to tell me about, including the director of the camp itself. I can't imagine something like that ever happening. I'd like to think that there's no way the ball could ever be so completely dropped by everybody involved in the situation.
However, if I was told there was no school, believed this meant I had the day off, and was about to head out somewhere, but then got an urgent phone call saying I needed to report to a camp, I would be mad as hell. I honestly can't say what I'd do in that situation.
It's pretty funny that most of the people arguing against me in this thread believe that I deliberately tried to weasel my way out of coming in on those two days instead of accepting the fact that I genuinely believed I had them off and was genuinely surprised when I started getting phone calls from my co-teacher. Rule #1 when it comes to these kinds of debates is that you have to accept the premise that is presented to you. You can't go around putting words in peoples' mouths and arguing against an entirely different premise. |
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