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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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 Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Your use of terms like "good and bad" and "negative impact on the world" are completely subjective. You knew that, though, right?
It's basically impossible to be objective on America for you and a lot of other people. It's one of those love-or-hate issues.
Like I said, you can pretend to be objective when you speak about Belgium. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
The problem with outside objectivity is that the people on the outside are rarely, if ever, objective themselves. Unfortunately, the inverse number of those people believe themselves to be objective.
While having sufficient information may not guarantee a correct objective viewpoint, lacking sufficient information would guarantee that your view is not objective as well as inaccurate.
There is also a difference between having a lot of knowledge about a place and understanding a place. In order to have understanding one needs both wisdom and humility. A person who lacks humility will fail at objectively viewing a place before they even start. With that humility the person observing the other culture also needs patience. The arrogant, rash outsider trying to view another culture will not be objective. They are to eager to 'figure' the place out and label it.
There is something to be said for experience. Experience covers all the intangible things that are necessary. Things that are lost and not readily observant. |
And experience also breeds a lack of objectivity.
I would argue the outside observer is at least double in objectivity over the average native on that country |
And how would you objectively quantify such a statement? |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
The problem with outside objectivity is that the people on the outside are rarely, if ever, objective themselves. Unfortunately, the inverse number of those people believe themselves to be objective.
While having sufficient information may not guarantee a correct objective viewpoint, lacking sufficient information would guarantee that your view is not objective as well as inaccurate.
There is also a difference between having a lot of knowledge about a place and understanding a place. In order to have understanding one needs both wisdom and humility. A person who lacks humility will fail at objectively viewing a place before they even start. With that humility the person observing the other culture also needs patience. The arrogant, rash outsider trying to view another culture will not be objective. They are to eager to 'figure' the place out and label it.
There is something to be said for experience. Experience covers all the intangible things that are necessary. Things that are lost and not readily observant. |
And experience also breeds a lack of objectivity.
I would argue the outside observer is at least double in objectivity over the average native on that country |
And how would you objectively quantify such a statement? |
About as effectively as the opposite I would imagine.
Truthfully though, common sense. How objective are you when you are involved in the situation? How objective are you if your family member is accused of a crime.
Outside people are more objective. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
Your use of terms like "good and bad" and "negative impact on the world" are completely subjective. You knew that, though, right?
It's basically impossible to be objective on America for you and a lot of other people. It's one of those love-or-hate issues.
Like I said, you can pretend to be objective when you speak about Belgium. |
Good and bad is subjective now is it?
So If an American policy all but bankrupts a foreign government, that's would be subjective eh?
You can give me there are two side of every story ( a bad outcome for a foreign country, but great for Americans could make a good and bad argument subjective. in that context) but bad things happening to "others" is a BAd outcome |
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laguna
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| hagwonnewbie wrote: |
| The most objective view is from a distance. |
I disagree, the best view is from the front lines.
The further away you get, the more your information degrades. |
Yes but look from a pair of american binoculars and you see an old temple that is brown and wearing away, very old and spectacular.
Look from the eyes of a local and it's a spiritual and eternal masterpiece made by the gods.
Silly metaphor but the point is Objectivity doesn't necessitate high quality information. Which is a fine point to raise in this discussion. |
The problem with your metaphor is that those are opinions, so both points are valid |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
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many people in your own country know less than those trying to get citizenship! many people in your own country have never even traveled around the country..
America for example puts its news all over the world! so its an open book!
the presidential debates pretty much covers all the problems facing America.
you don't have to live in a country for 5 years to know it.. you just have to read about and watch the news! to get the idea of the country..
asking me the fastest way to 68th street from JFK airport.. then sure I wont know! that might take living and driving in the city for a few months or years
or I could just download some maps and study it!
but a country like Botswana I doubt we know more than the locals do!
but I'm sure there is some foreigner who studies African politics! and knows more than the locals do! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| nukeday wrote: |
Your use of terms like "good and bad" and "negative impact on the world" are completely subjective. You knew that, though, right?
It's basically impossible to be objective on America for you and a lot of other people. It's one of those love-or-hate issues.
Like I said, you can pretend to be objective when you speak about Belgium. |
Good and bad is subjective now is it?
So If an American policy all but bankrupts a foreign government, that's would be subjective eh?
You can give me there are two side of every story ( a bad outcome for a foreign country, but great for Americans could make a good and bad argument subjective. in that context) but bad things happening to "others" is a BAd outcome |
You are proof about the whole axe to grind thing plus the stereotypical know-it-all Canadian that gives your country a bad name.
And yes, it is subjective. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| nukeday wrote: |
Your use of terms like "good and bad" and "negative impact on the world" are completely subjective. You knew that, though, right?
It's basically impossible to be objective on America for you and a lot of other people. It's one of those love-or-hate issues.
Like I said, you can pretend to be objective when you speak about Belgium. |
Good and bad is subjective now is it?
So If an American policy all but bankrupts a foreign government, that's would be subjective eh?
You can give me there are two side of every story ( a bad outcome for a foreign country, but great for Americans could make a good and bad argument subjective. in that context) but bad things happening to "others" is a BAd outcome |
You are proof about the whole axe to grind thing plus the stereotypical know-it-all Canadian that gives your country a bad name.
And yes, it is subjective. |
never heard the "know it all" Canadian stereotype
I have no axe to grind,
NOt really subjective |
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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think you know what subjective means. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
| I don't think you know what subjective means. |
O.F.F.S
I am talking about clearly bad actions. Bankrupting other economies, preventing them form digging out of the hole etc.
Don't give me this American Apologist crap that there are no "bad" actions. I am not talking about the gray area crap I am talking about plan and simple bad actions. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| nukeday wrote: |
Your use of terms like "good and bad" and "negative impact on the world" are completely subjective. You knew that, though, right?
It's basically impossible to be objective on America for you and a lot of other people. It's one of those love-or-hate issues.
Like I said, you can pretend to be objective when you speak about Belgium. |
Good and bad is subjective now is it?
So If an American policy all but bankrupts a foreign government, that's would be subjective eh?
You can give me there are two side of every story ( a bad outcome for a foreign country, but great for Americans could make a good and bad argument subjective. in that context) but bad things happening to "others" is a BAd outcome |
You are proof about the whole axe to grind thing plus the stereotypical know-it-all Canadian that gives your country a bad name.
And yes, it is subjective. |
never heard the "know it all" Canadian stereotype
I have no axe to grind,
NOt really subjective |
Unfortunately anytime anyone outside the US dares to have an opinion, especially one backed up by fact, they are called know-it-alls, smug and/or anti-American. The fact is, the US is a really great country with some flaws but because it's the world's only superpower the great part is assumed and the flaws are investigated. However, inside the US people are constantly told that they are number one at everything so many Americans tend to think it's heresy for anyone else to suggest otherwise, even if they claim they're open minded. For example, a recent poll found that the majority of Americans believe they give more than 5% of GDP in foreign aid when in reality it's less than 1% (sorry, I can't find it right now, I'm between classes). The real number is not that different from other industrialized nations so it's not like they should be ashamed or anything. But at least a dozen times I have corrected American friends who have stated the exaggerated number only to be told that I am wrong and anti-American. And these are left-leaning liberal college educated travellers. Another example is the American belief that immigrants only want to go to the US and no other country ("Only in America") and that they want to go there for their 'freedoms' instead of simply for money (which isn't a bad thing, it's an indication of how good the country is, just in a different more complex way).
I'm not saying that all Canadians know more about the US than all Americans, I'm saying that it is very possible for a Canadian to be much more aware of the context than an American. I've had discussions with Americans about their elections and in the end I've been told to mind my own business. Ok, I'll do that as soon as your elected presidents stop invading other countries and destablizing the global economy. If you want to be the most powerful country in the world then you're going to have to deal with the impact you have on others. You can't have your cake (ie cheapest gas prices outside the Gulf states) and eat it too (be exempt from foreign criticism for how you get those low prices). The fact remains Americans can be just as critical of other countries if they choose to learn about them, as some do. The thing is, when many of my American friends try to flip it on me and criticize Canada they simply just don't know enough to do it. There are many problems in Canada and I wouldn't mind hearing different (educated) perspectives on them. Really, though, it just boils down to the age old, "Yeah, well, no one cares about your country!!" Well, fine. How does that prevent me from understanding yours?
We're all citizens of the world and we all have a right to hold opinions. I don't see how being born and raised in one country makes you naturally understand it better than studying it from afar. I have read dozens of books about American history, foreign policy, economics and society. I might not know my way around town or why Two and Half Men is the #1 TV show, but I sure do know more about the country than many of the Americans (and Canadians, and Euros, and Koreans, etc.) I've met. I think the US is a great country and has the power to do real good things in the world, that's why I care. |
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Kysorb
Joined: 19 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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From one Canadian to another, get off your high horse.
Yes, we can debate foreign policies, yes we could cancel all the worlds debt. Only good actions because that will solve everything right?
But it won't, like crack addicts the world has a balance.
Your argument begins with the false assumption that it is the actions of one party that are clearly wrong and render the other party blameless.
Now, I'm sure you have an example of something America has done that your going to bring up which you read about in 1st year Communism err "Sociology" but never forget our own skeletons. Here's 2,
Canada is the only western country to let its terrorist citizen Khadr rot away in Gitmo instead of bringing him back to a Canadian prison. As someone looking to work overseas I don't like the idea that my government doesn't really think bringing me back from a torturous place is important...
On the other hand, the world mostly hates the Canadian seal hunt. I don't, I fully support the clubbing of those stupid sea mutts over the head and dragging them across the ice to a boat. Anyone who has lost a salmon while trying to real it in finds seals only funny once... Then you shoot em.
Good and bad is always subjective. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't normally pick on spelling errors, but a fisherman who wants an entire species dead for damaging his career can't spell reel? Or was that just a random example? Anyway I know nothing about America so I'm going to fade out of this thread...thread...threa...thr...t |
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Kysorb
Joined: 19 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
| I wouldn't normally pick on spelling errors, but a fisherman who wants an entire species dead for damaging his career can't spell reel? Or was that just a random example? Anyway I know nothing about America so I'm going to fade out of this thread...thread...threa...thr...t |
Random example. Lesson in proofreading accepted. |
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Tigerstyleone
Joined: 01 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| What do you guys know about Thailand? |
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