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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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The War Logs at the NY Times
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| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
The War Logs at the NY Times
| Quote: |
| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
Pakistan is best not thought of as a monolithic entity. Just because one faction is working for the Taliban doesn't mean they all are. Pakistan is one of the most pivotal countries in the world. Any influence we can buy is important. It is disgusting, but there is very little we can do. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
The War Logs at the NY Times
| Quote: |
| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
Pakistan is best not thought of as a monolithic entity. Just because one faction is working for the Taliban doesn't mean they all are. Pakistan is one of the most pivotal countries in the world. Any influence we can buy is important. It is disgusting, but there is very little we can do. |
Leon, yes, I know, it isn't monolithic. Do you really think we're buying influence though? What influence is that? And how is it a positive contribution? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
The War Logs at the NY Times
| Quote: |
| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
Pakistan is best not thought of as a monolithic entity. Just because one faction is working for the Taliban doesn't mean they all are. Pakistan is one of the most pivotal countries in the world. Any influence we can buy is important. It is disgusting, but there is very little we can do. |
Leon, yes, I know, it isn't monolithic. Do you really think we're buying influence though? What influence is that? And how is it a positive contribution? |
Massive Pakistan military operations against the Taliban in Pakistan. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
The War Logs at the NY Times
| Quote: |
| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
Pakistan is best not thought of as a monolithic entity. Just because one faction is working for the Taliban doesn't mean they all are. Pakistan is one of the most pivotal countries in the world. Any influence we can buy is important. It is disgusting, but there is very little we can do. |
Leon, yes, I know, it isn't monolithic. Do you really think we're buying influence though? What influence is that? And how is it a positive contribution? |
Massive Pakistan military operations against the Taliban in Pakistan. |
Which are undermined by themselves. And who is to say those Taliban forces are operating in Afghanistan too? Perhaps they are strictly focused on fighting the Pakistani government? And just like you said Pakistan isn't monolithic, neither is the Taliban.
And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
The War Logs at the NY Times
| Quote: |
| The documents, made available by an organization called WikiLeaks, suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders. |
Pakistan is by far my least favorite country in Asia these days. Why do we give so much money to a country that really doesn't serve our interests whatsoever?? There was an article last week about how little Pakstianis pay in income tax. The gov't is able to function almost entirely due to aid. Disgusting.
Yeah, they have nukes, I know. What the hell can we do about this country?? Anything? |
Pakistan is best not thought of as a monolithic entity. Just because one faction is working for the Taliban doesn't mean they all are. Pakistan is one of the most pivotal countries in the world. Any influence we can buy is important. It is disgusting, but there is very little we can do. |
Leon, yes, I know, it isn't monolithic. Do you really think we're buying influence though? What influence is that? And how is it a positive contribution? |
Massive Pakistan military operations against the Taliban in Pakistan. |
Which are undermined by themselves. And who is to say those Taliban forces are operating in Afghanistan too? Perhaps they are strictly focused on fighting the Pakistani government? And just like you said Pakistan isn't monolithic, neither is the Taliban.
And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
The Taliban is more of an insurgency than a terrorist group. It can be fought in more traditional ways than a group like Al Qaeda. It's focus has as much to do with tribalism as Islam. It is focused on Afghanistan and Pakistan, not some worldwide agenda. Pakistan is a more valuable country than Afghanistan, so if the group was only focused on Pakistan it wouldn't change anything. Right or wrong the money has also probably bought more leeway for the drone program. Pakistan is a base of operations of major terrorist networks, factions of it's government fund and support terrorist groups. It has nuclear weapons and an unstable government, and it has extremely hostile relations with India. ANY influence and control aid dollars can buy us is important because Pakistan is probably the biggest security concern in the world and needs to be treated as such. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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This subject is rather depressing. America has all rights to be there, but having the right to remain and the ability to influence are two different matters (no, I don't want to argue with anyone whether America has the right to be there, I won't agree).
Obama's involvement in Afghanistan is tragic. McChrystal actually was having a beneficial impact, even given it was never likely he could turn Afghanistan into a 'victory.' And then he gets fired for something a lot of high officials do, being honest with journalists in the assumption that the info will be protected. Now he's left with Petraeus, who is unenthusiastic about success in Afghanistan and yet also willing to stay there even longer.
Leadership aside, narcotrafficking is unassailable. Much of Afghanistan is still untouched by civilization as we would recognize it. And the Taliban have wore down a superpower and a bunch of other first-rate powers in one of the world's backwaters.
But Obama has resolved to make a stand, and having committed the lives and resources, what new information is there to justify a sudden change in strategy. He has to see the strategy through.
What really is there left to say? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
The Algerian fundamentalist didn't have enough domestic support. I've heard many Algerians say that most of those who voted in the fundamentalists did so to vote the old order out. At that time they were probably quite naive as to the consequences.
Anyway, are we really in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism? I actually find this hard to believe. There must be other factors that are keeping us there. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Another delightful report outlining how our boys have been eradicating fundamentalism and liberating the lovely ladies from their burkas:
Afghanistan war logs: How US marines sanitised record of bloodbath
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Brevity is the hallmark of military reporting, but even by those standards the description of one disastrous event is remarkably short: "The patrol returned to base."
It started with a suicide bomb. On 4 March 2007 a convoy of US marines, who arrived in Afghanistan three weeks earlier, were hit by an explosives-rigged minivan outside the city of Jalalabad.
The marines made a frenzied escape, opening fire with automatic weapons as they tore down a six-mile stretch of highway, hitting almost anyone in their way � teenage girls in fields, motorists in their cars, old men as they walked along the road. Nineteen unarmed civilians were killed and 50 wounded.
None of this, however, was captured in the initial military account, written by the marines themselves. It simply says that, simultaneous to the suicide explosion, "the patrol received small arms fire from three directions".
And the subsequent rampage as they drove away � which would later be the subject of a 17-day military inquiry and a 12,000-page report � is captured in five words: "The patrol returned to JAF [Jalalabad air field]."
The soldiers' initial concern, it appears, was a wounded marine � their only casualty. Forty-nine minutes after the initial bombing, they requested a "routine medevac" for a private with "shrapnel wounds to the arm". He was evacuated to safety.
An hour later came the first news of the trail of blood they left behind. A local government official told the marines there were "28 LN WIA", which in layman's terms means 28 Afghan civilians had been wounded. This later transpired to be a gross underestimate.
It was not the last one. |
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But there would be no punishment. The marines, angered by the criticism of their unit by an army commander, held their own inquiry into the shootings and issued their findings a year later. It exonerated the marines. The troops "acted appropriately and in accordance with the rules of engagement � in response to a complex attack," said Major General Samuel Helland, the commander of marine forces in the Middle East and Afghanistan.
The inquiry lasted 17 days and heard from 50 witnesses, including Afghans who testified by videolink. But it did not hear from the four soldiers who fired their weapons, because they had not been granted immunity from prosecution. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
The Algerian fundamentalist didn't have enough domestic support. I've heard many Algerians say that most of those who voted in the fundamentalists did so to vote the old order out. At that time they were probably quite naive as to the consequences.
Anyway, are we really in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism? I actually find this hard to believe. There must be other factors that are keeping us there. |
We aren't in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism, at least we shouldn't be. It is/ should be a simple matter of security. That being said the distraction of trying to nation build is probably part of the reason we're taking so long. Mere stability should be a top goal, and a very worthy one at that, especially considering the region and the history. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Leon wrote: |
| It is/ should be a simple matter of security. |
Whatever threat Afghanistan posed to our national security, it would have been hard pressed to cause as much damage as we did to ourselves through our own choices regarding the region. American lives and American prosperity are two of the things national security is meant to safeguard; security at the cost of those things is counterproductive, unless the losses would be even worse without said additional security (and it's extremely unlikely they would have been). From a purely pragmatic point of view, we'd have been better off addressing this issue through domestic policy and foregoing invasion. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
The Algerian fundamentalist didn't have enough domestic support. I've heard many Algerians say that most of those who voted in the fundamentalists did so to vote the old order out. At that time they were probably quite naive as to the consequences.
Anyway, are we really in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism? I actually find this hard to believe. There must be other factors that are keeping us there. |
We aren't in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism, at least we shouldn't be. It is/ should be a simple matter of security. That being said the distraction of trying to nation build is probably part of the reason we're taking so long. Mere stability should be a top goal, and a very worthy one at that, especially considering the region and the history. |
Can you explain how it is a matter of security, and how the war contributes to this security? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Just came across another reason put forward.
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| After 9-11 the Bush regime decided to use the changed circumstances (the climate of fear and to some extent Islamophobia) to invade Iraq. He had wanted to do this for some time. In early 1999 he�d told the man who was planning to ghostwrite his autobiography: �One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade---if I had that much capital, I�m not going to waste it. I�m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I�m going to have a successful presidency.� |
http://counterpunch.org/leupp07222010.html
While I don't accept it as an ultimate reason, I certainly don't dismiss it as a contributing factor. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Just came across another reason put forward.
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| After 9-11 the Bush regime decided to use the changed circumstances (the climate of fear and to some extent Islamophobia) to invade Iraq. He had wanted to do this for some time. In early 1999 he�d told the man who was planning to ghostwrite his autobiography: �One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade---if I had that much capital, I�m not going to waste it. I�m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I�m going to have a successful presidency.� |
http://counterpunch.org/leupp07222010.html
While I don't accept it as an ultimate reason, I certainly don't dismiss it as a contributing factor. |
When I was in grad school I attended seminar after seminar about why America attacked Iraq. Big swinging dick IPE/IR theorists would attempt to find rational reasons for the most irrational action. Nobody had a good theory. There was no geo-political benefit. No benefit for oil firms. No benefit to security. No WMD's. WTF.
God damn it big bird. Really? Are you pretending that you don't know why America invaded?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110
It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with America. Americans fight and die for .....
Bush, like Sarah Palin, is a Trojan Horse. A dumb ass WASP who represents ... Hey, did you know that oil firms are lobbying against sanctions and war with Iran? What's going on there?
Please don't answer if you're going to play dumb. Let it pass. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: Re: More Proof Afghanistan is Money Down the Drain |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And do you really think fighting Islamic fundamentalism is winnable through aggressive military action? If so, where has been an example of where it has worked? Algeria perhaps, but its elite didn't support the fundamentalists like some Pakistani elite have supported fundamentalists. |
The Algerian fundamentalist didn't have enough domestic support. I've heard many Algerians say that most of those who voted in the fundamentalists did so to vote the old order out. At that time they were probably quite naive as to the consequences.
Anyway, are we really in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism? I actually find this hard to believe. There must be other factors that are keeping us there. |
We aren't in Afghanistan to fight Islamic fundamentalism, at least we shouldn't be. It is/ should be a simple matter of security. That being said the distraction of trying to nation build is probably part of the reason we're taking so long. Mere stability should be a top goal, and a very worthy one at that, especially considering the region and the history. |
Can you explain how it is a matter of security, and how the war contributes to this security? |
Really? It's simple, Afghanistan was a safe haven for terrorists. When you throw in the fact that it's also a narco state located next door to an unstable country with nuclear weapons than it gets even more clear. The war in Afghanistan probably will increase our security in the long term, but it has been mishandled and nation building was an unrealistic goal. |
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