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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
The foreign policy is entirely Israel approved. Big Bird, do you know who Obama surrounds himself with? You should look into it. He is, as he said (in an indirect way) a Jewish accomplishment.
Now, I don't care about the Jews. But I am anti-war and anti America being broke and as such I stand exactly opposite of the organized Jewish community in the United States, UK and Canada. |
I am well aware that Israel has a disproportionate influence on the US, and that there is a very active and powerful Jewish lobby. But again I will state that I am not convinced of the 'tail wagging the dog' theory.
The US allowed itself to be coupled to Israel because it felt it was in its own interests. I believe this is slowly changing, and the US is slowly coming to view Israel as something of a liability. I think public opinion is slowly shifting in the US. For one thing, I think Israel's shocking assault on Gaza was a milestone in helping turn around public opinion. |
Big Bird is right. Very few under 30 sympathize with today's Israel, and that goes for many young American Jews. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Scott Horton from Anti War Radio interviewed her parents a few weeks back. They said that she was standing in front of that house because there were children inside. She died trying to save them. She gets fully zero recognition in the MSM in the US or from anyone who is anyone.
http://antiwar.com/radio/2010/06/04/craig-and-cindy-corrie/
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| But this isn't necessarily proof that Israel has the US by the balls. If the US considered the partnership to be very important, it would be natural to downplay these events in the interests of the bigger picture. |
Admiral Mullen recently warned the IDF that he was on the lookout for a Liberty or other similar style event. He actually had to tell them that. Some partnership. Look at how David Petraus converses with Max Boot:
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/07/petraeus-fed-his-pro-israel-bona-fides-to-a-neocon-writer-including-pathetic-recitation-of-meeting-wiesel.html
Now that's power. Amazing, total power. Petraeus is one of the most important leaders in the most powerful army in the history of the world, reduced to groveling to Max Boot. He actually used emoticons too.
Petraeus will be running for president one day. With those emails in mind, whom do you think he will serve?
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| I haven't got time to check out your podcast today. I'll do it later when I'm free. There's one that's long been doing the rounds regarding AIPEC. Perhaps it's the same one? |
I don't think so. Sibel Edmonds isn't really on the radar (though she should be: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/nov/01/00006/ ). If you remember which interview that was, share please.
And who can forget this:
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2010/07/17/bibi-spills-the-beans/
Eric Margolis discusses it here:
http://antiwar.com/radio/2010/07/20/eric-margolis-30/
...
Murdoch is a vile character. I don't discount his power, or the power of Christian Zionists. Or the military industrial complex. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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How many of you were actually against the invasion back in 2001/2002?
I remember how very unpopular it was to be against the war. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
How many of you were actually against the invasion back in 2001/2002?
I remember how very unpopular it was to be against the war. |
I was completely opposed to it and tried to make my (small) voice heard in protests and petitions. I recall mises once saying that he marched against it (or perhaps that was the Iraq war?). There are other regulars on this board who opposed it at the time.
And you? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Just reading more of the article mises posted.
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However, according to the Jewish-American columnist, the present war has a further importance. If Iraq does become pro-Western and if it becomes the focus of American influence, that will be of immense geopolitical importance. An American presence in Iraq will project power across the region. It will suffuse the rebels in Iran with courage and strength, and it will deter and restrain Syria. It will accelerate the processes of change that the Middle East must undergo.
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This would have been as much in America's own interests as in Israel's. |
Who could possibly have believed this?
The Israelis wanted a destroyed Iraq that would turn Sunni against Shia. Neo-cons have a nice history of running interference with other groups for perceived ethnic safety. They'll do the same in Iran. Weaken the state and encourage social conflict. Takes attention off of them. |
I agree that Israel gets a disproportionate say in how the US runs things. But I've never been convinced that the 'tail wags the dog' as even some of my Israeli friends have boasted. I really don't think the US would let itself be used entirely in another nation's interests, unless they thought there was much to be had for the US too. |
The foreign policy is entirely Israel approved. Big Bird, do you know who Obama surrounds himself with? You should look into it. He is, as he said (in an indirect way) a Jewish accomplishment.
Now, I don't care about the Jews. But I am anti-war and anti America being broke and as such I stand exactly opposite of the organized Jewish community in the United States, UK and Canada. |
Well it's certainly does seem that no US president would (currently) do what the British prime minister just did:
Cameron uses Turkish visit to launch ferocious attack on Israel
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In comments that will play well in Turkey, Mr Cameron frankly addressed the situation in Gaza. Speaking to business leaders in Ankara, Mr Cameron condemned Israel's land and sea blockade of Gaza, aimed at weakening the Islamist group Hamas, which seized control of the strip in 2007.
"Let me be clear that the situation in Gaza has to change," said Mr Cameron, reiterating comments that he made earlier to the House of Commons. "Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp."
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Cameron wants Turkey in the EU. I don't feel so comfortable about that, given Turkey's dreadful record regarding human rights. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Cameron wants Turkey in the EU. I don't feel so comfortable about that, given Turkey's dreadful record regarding human rights. |
...and it would permanently upset the demographic balance and create societies more prone to blowing up in violence, right? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Cameron wants Turkey in the EU. I don't feel so comfortable about that, given Turkey's dreadful record regarding human rights. |
...and it would permanently upset the demographic balance and create societies more prone to blowing up in violence, right? |
Haha - you mean the fact that they are muslim? I'm not so worried about that aspect of it. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Just came across another reason put forward.
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| After 9-11 the Bush regime decided to use the changed circumstances (the climate of fear and to some extent Islamophobia) to invade Iraq. He had wanted to do this for some time. In early 1999 he�d told the man who was planning to ghostwrite his autobiography: �One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief. My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade---if I had that much capital, I�m not going to waste it. I�m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I�m going to have a successful presidency.� |
http://counterpunch.org/leupp07222010.html
While I don't accept it as an ultimate reason, I certainly don't dismiss it as a contributing factor. |
When I was in grad school I attended seminar after seminar about why America attacked Iraq. Big swinging dick IPE/IR theorists would attempt to find rational reasons for the most irrational action. Nobody had a good theory. There was no geo-political benefit. No benefit for oil firms. No benefit to security. No WMD's. WTF.
God damn it big bird. Really? Are you pretending that you don't know why America invaded?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/white-man-s-burden-1.14110
It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with America. Americans fight and die for .....
Bush, like Sarah Palin, is a Trojan Horse. A dumb ass WASP who represents ... Hey, did you know that oil firms are lobbying against sanctions and war with Iran? What's going on there?
Please don't answer if you're going to play dumb. Let it pass. |
From your linked article:
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Does this moral vision mean that after Iraq will come the turns of Saudi Arabia and Egypt?
Kristol says that he is at odds with the administration on the question of Saudi Arabia. But his opinion is that it is impossible to let Saudi Arabia just continue what it is doing. It is impossible to accept the anti-Americanism it is disseminating. The fanatic Wahhabism that Saudi Arabia engenders is undermining the stability of the entire region. It's the same with Egypt, he says: we mustn't accept the status quo there. For Egypt, too, the horizon has to be liberal democracy. |
I guess this means that if the neo-cons get their way with Iran we'll know which two countries will be next for some shock and reconstruction therapy. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Actually, regarding the 'War on Terror' {what a bloody stupid term and concept} Saudi Arabia and Egypt are the countries which have caused the most problems. Saudi Arabia has used its oil money to propagate its extreme and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam all over the globe, and Egypt has long been a hotbed of Islamicism. However, the Egyptian authorities can't really be held responsible, as they themselves fear the Islamists, and have tried to curb them as much as they dare. But the Saudis are quite deliberately pushing their deviant form of Islam onto as many as they can.
But bringing war on either nation is not really a sensible or effective way of addressing the problem. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Haha - you mean the fact that they are muslim? I'm not so worried about that aspect of it. |
Me neither. On the contrary, in fact. A nice dose of Islam would do Europe - the UK in particular - the world of good |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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A bit off-topic, but I have to say I'm very disappointed every time the US lobbies for Turkey's membership in the EU. The US won't have to bear the true responsibility for its entrance. I know, as an American, if Europe were broadcasting opinions on whether or not X territory should become a state, I'd be furious.
| Cameron wrote: |
| Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp |
I think even strident supporters of Israel could admit that the situation is unsustainable from a humanitarian perspective. |
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