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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| mc_jc wrote: |
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| The balance of power will help stop Israel from doing anything stupid. |
Not when you have a nutcase like Ahmedinejad making statements like [paraphasing] "I will make sure that Israel is wiped from the face of the map".
Actually, right now you see more of a justification for M.A.D. than during the Cold War. |
Action speak louder than words. Iran has attacked nobody, has militarily provoked nobody. They are on the defense against the constant threat of assaults by Israel and the US - they are practically surrounded on all fronts. I think they have to be commended on how well they have kept the peace.
Meanwhile Israel is saying stuff like,
"If the US doesn't attack Iran, we are going to have to go to war alone!"
Well then, just go. Nobody is stopping Israel from starting their own preemptive wars. |
You don't know what you are talking about. Iran shouldn't be commended for keeping the "peace". They actively support Hamas and Hezbollah with weapons and money. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
I love how you continue to quote a drug-abusing sociopath who advocated killing all white people and starting a race war in the US and Canada. Quoting such a person is almost as racist as a person quoting Hitler.
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Please stick with what you know (i.e. military matters) since you obviously are quite ignorant of Malcom X.
Yes, he used drugs and for a long time was a racist. On the other hand, he cleaned up and did not use drugs for most of his life and had an awakening and realized what a bigot he was. Why do you think he was killed??
And sociopath? Spare me. You obviously have learned little about the man.
His life was a hell of a lot more remarkable (for better and worse) than yours or mine. |
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mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes, he used drugs and for a long time was a racist. On the other hand, he cleaned up and did not use drugs for most of his life and had an awakening and realized what a bigot he was. Why do you think he was killed??
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Then why is Louis Farakhan always spouting racial hatred and speaking in the same inflamed bigotry as the NAZIs did, even after the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and ammended it many times since then.
Malcolm X advocated the creation of a separate state that would exclude all other races except blacks. Please read his writings more carefully.
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| Israel has taken away all the legitimate ways for ANYONE, not just the insurgents, to make money. |
Are you sure?
Israel allows trade to go through to the West Bank and Gaza as long as it is inspected for contraband that could be used against them in a war. Any and every nation does that.
Also, Israel allowed Palestinians to work in Israel, which does bring money into the territories. It is only when their is a threat that the borders are closed.
My question is; What does Israel have to do with Iran having nuclear weapons?
How does Israel threaten Iran directly if they are separated by thousands of milies of land from each other?
It's amazing how Muslim countries as far away as Iran, Pakistan and Malaysia could easily use the excuse of Israel to justify their outlandish weapons programs.
No one takes into account the murder and repression of the Muslim Uighurs at the hands of the Chinese nor do most of you know that 10% of Kashmir is even owned by China and also repress religious activities there.
But since China is too powerful to talk about, it is easy to go after a weaker nation... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
Then why is Louis Farakhan always spouting racial hatred and speaking in the same inflamed bigotry as the NAZIs did, even after the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and ammended it many times since then.
Malcolm X advocated the creation of a separate state that would exclude all other races except blacks. Please read his writings more carefully.
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1. What the heck does Louis Farakhan have to do with Malcom X? You ARE aware that Malcom X broke away from the Nation of Islam right? And that the Nation of Islam is most likely responsible for his death?
2. I will repeat myself:
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| [He]had an awakening and realized what a bigot he was. |
Malcom X in his final years was much different than the Malcom X in his earlier years. That is part of what makes him so impressive: realizing the error of his ways. That is why I have a lot of respect for the man.
You clearly have no read about the man, or if so, it was just a small chunk of his writings and/or life.
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| It's amazing how Muslim countries as far away as Iran, Pakistan and Malaysia could easily use the excuse of Israel to justify their outlandish weapons programs. |
Except only Iran uses Israel as justification. Pakistan did not use Israel as justification. Instead it has India as its justification (I'm not saying it is legit, just saying that's what it uses). Malaysia has a weapons program?? Can you provide a source for that? News to me.
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No one takes into account the murder and repression of the Muslim Uighurs at the hands of the Chinese nor do most of you know that 10% of Kashmir is even owned by China and also repress religious activities there.
But since China is too powerful to talk about, it is easy to go after a weaker nation... |
Yes, we do take it into account. There have been a couple threads on the Uighurs. Or do you mean their Muslim brethern? In the case of US, well, we don't give China any financial assistance or any support of any kind. We DO give Israel billions in aid and our support antagonizes a lot of other nations. BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE.
In the case of Islamic nations, you have a legitimate point. That being said, China isn't in their backyards (Pakistan and Central Asia excluded) while Palestine is. Kinda like how some Americans are freaked out about illegal immigrants and the ever increasing presence of Hispanics in the USA but don't really care or sympathize with EU citizens concerns about Turkey potentially joining the EU. Yes, I know, not the best analogy, but I think you get my point.
In addition, Pakistan and China are friendly while China's relations are quite frosty with India. That's a big reason why Pakistan is quiet on the subject (an enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine). Central Asia is run by authoritarian governments, and China has massive investment in those countries, so obviously they're not going to say squat against China. If Israel had massive investments in neighboring countries, those governments would not be using it as a scapegoat for their own poor governance. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
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| Israel has taken away all the legitimate ways for ANYONE, not just the insurgents, to make money. |
Are you sure?
Israel allows trade to go through to the West Bank and Gaza as long as it is inspected for contraband that could be used against them in a war. Any and every nation does that.
Also, Israel allowed Palestinians to work in Israel, which does bring money into the territories. It is only when their is a threat that the borders are closed. |
Israel gets to decide what is and isnt' contraband.
"The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa's list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner.
GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate
Many other items - ranging from cars to fridges to computers - are generally refused entry.
Building materials such as cement, concrete and wood were nearly always refused entry until early 2010, when some glass, wood, cement and aluminium were allowed in."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
I'm sure all of those items are so threatening, as are schools and hospitals which were targeted in the Gaza invasion.
| mc_jc wrote: |
My question is; What does Israel have to do with Iran having nuclear weapons?
How does Israel threaten Iran directly if they are separated by thousands of milies of land from each other? |
Ask Israel, they are the ones who want to preemptively strike Iran.
| mc_jc wrote: |
| It's amazing how Muslim countries as far away as Iran, Pakistan and Malaysia could easily use the excuse of Israel to justify their outlandish weapons programs. |
Iran is not using Israel to justify it's nuclear program. It still maintains it's for peaceful use. Not saying it is or it isn't, but that what you are saying is irrelevant since none of those countries do what you are saying. |
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mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Except only Iran uses Israel as justification. |
What justification?
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| Malcom X in his final years was much different than the Malcom X in his earlier years. |
Not when he was advocating violence as a means to make his voice heard. He was such a "non-violent" figure, why were his words used as part of the doctrine of the Black Panther Party?
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Except only Iran uses Israel as justification. Pakistan did not use Israel as justification. Instead it has India as its justification (I'm not saying it is legit, just saying that's what it uses). Malaysia has a weapons program?? Can you provide a source for that? News to me.
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Some idiot will post on Wikileaks, so no need for me to even answer this.
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| In addition, Pakistan and China are friendly while China's relations are quite frosty with India. That's a big reason why Pakistan is quiet on the subject (an enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine). Central Asia is run by authoritarian governments, and China has massive investment in those countries, so obviously they're not going to say squat against China. If Israel had massive investments in neighboring countries, those governments would not be using it as a scapegoat for their own poor governance. |
So, what you're saying is that it is ok to look the other way in regards to opression and civil rights violations as long as it doesn't hinder trade and political relations? Fascinating.
Israel has been a clandestine trading partner to many Middle Eastern countries for decades, especially to the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia. Many of the weapon systems used in these countries have components manufactured in Israeli factories. The reason for this is the GCC's concern of Iran's ambitions in the region- they are already laying claim to Bahrain and even Kuwait itself (ring a bell?). Although the US is the largest supplier of weapons in the region, the second is Israel although none of the governments will openly admit it.
I guess you're right- trade DOES help governments keep quiet on certain issues- thank you. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Except only Iran uses Israel as justification. |
What justification? |
Dude, you were the one who said this! I was agreeing with you! My goodness. Justification in having a nuke program. "Israel has nukes, so we can too!" But according to Leon, Iran hasn't said this, so maybe Iran hasn't used this as justification.
| mc_jc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Malcom X in his final years was much different than the Malcom X in his earlier years. |
Not when he was advocating violence as a means to make his voice heard. He was such a "non-violent" figure, why were his words used as part of the doctrine of the Black Panther Party? |
Dude, I've repeatedly said his views and methods changed. I've repeatedly acknowledged at one point yes, he was a racist and wasn't the best man around. You have failed to acknowlege there was more to the man than hatred.
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| Quote: |
Except only Iran uses Israel as justification. Pakistan did not use Israel as justification. Instead it has India as its justification (I'm not saying it is legit, just saying that's what it uses). Malaysia has a weapons program?? Can you provide a source for that? News to me.
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Some idiot will post on Wikileaks, so no need for me to even answer this. |
Ok, thanks for confirming you're bullshitting. Dave's Cafe isn't exactly a legit source in the eyes of Wikileaks.
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So, what you're saying is that it is ok to look the other way in regards to opression and civil rights violations as long as it doesn't hinder trade and political relations? Fascinating. |
Nowhere did I say Ok. Please re-read that. I was merely EXPLAINING, not JUSTIFYING. I hope you know the difference.
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Israel has been a clandestine trading partner to many Middle Eastern countries for decades, especially to the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia. Many of the weapon systems used in these countries have components manufactured in Israeli factories. The reason for this is the GCC's concern of Iran's ambitions in the region- they are already laying claim to Bahrain and even Kuwait itself (ring a bell?). Although the US is the largest supplier of weapons in the region, the second is Israel although none of the governments will openly admit it.
I guess you're right- trade DOES help governments keep quiet on certain issues- thank you. |
Yes, this is more proof to my argument. The gulf states do not propogate nearly as much hatred towards Israel as Syria and other Arab states do. Why? In part due to business ties that the other Arab states do not have. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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mc-jc wrote:
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| Canada sent a Battalion of French-speaking soldiers into Phnom Penh in 1971. Canada was part of the overall Commonwealth contingent involved during the Vietnam War. |
Dp you have a source for this? I've never heard of anything that would qualify as a "Commonwealth contingent" during the Vietnam War. As far as I know, Australia sent troops, the UK and Canada did not. Not sure about the rest of the Commonwealth. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
| He was such a "non-violent" figure, why were his words used as part of the doctrine of the Black Panther Party? |
Are you saying you have a problem with their "Kill-a-Cop-A-Day Program"? |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I agree with many of mc jc's points but(and not to get too off topic)to say that some kind of "Commonwealth Contingent" was involved in the Indochina War(in contrast to Korea), troop wise, is a complete & massive crock. Australia & NZ sent troops at the volition of their respective governments. "Commonwealth" had squat to do with it. UK sent NO troops. Thousands of Canadians served in the war but they were ALL volunteers with the U.S. miltary. Let's just say their "green cards" were processed mighty quickly.
Should Britain, Canada, etc.,have been fighting in 'Nam? That merits a seperate thread. |
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mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Britain and the Commonwealth committed forces to Indo-China as soon as the U.S. requested their presence in the mid-1960's.
The contingent was ran by the British headquarters in Danang at the main U.S. military base in South Vietnam. The force was made of task forces from Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the UK.
They joined U.S. forces when they invaded Cambodia in 1970 with a semi-permanent presence in the country from 1971 until 1975. The Australian and New Zealand soldiers went on patrol with American and Combodian forces while Canadians were responsible for gathering intel. I will also say that Australian soldiers were instrumental in teaching American soldiers valuable survival skills.
If you have any questions about this, you could direct them to the Foreign Offices of both Canada and the UK. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: mc jc |
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"If you have any questions about this, you could direct them to the Foreign Offices...." 
No mate, if I have any Qs about this I'll direct them to YOU. Where's your source(s)?!
Fr.-Can. battalion in Cambodia?! UK HQ in Danang?! Horsehockey.
Aus./NZ went to Nam mainly because of SEATO. Canadians who fought were VOLUNTEERS with the UNITED STATES military. In point of fact, the Liberal governments of the day discouraged enlistment & disavowed Canadians who went to fight in Nam. Don't try to portray the very tiny ICC Canadian contingent as "Commonwealth" troops fighting in combat.
I'm tempted to assert that you're a nutter or a troll-but I won't. Civility must rule the roost at Dave's. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
My question is; What does Israel have to do with Iran having nuclear weapons?
How does Israel threaten Iran directly if they are separated by thousands of milies of land from each other? |
If you're going to say Hezbollah is a proxy Iranian force, then you need to be consistent and recognize that you're a proxy Israeli force. The US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are ravaging the US economy, but Israel is getting something for nothing. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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America has no business in the middle east! they are far from home..
there is no justification! I wonder how the Americans would feel if China or russia set up shop in mexico and then started getting on their national TVs and discussing possible sanctions and war with USA ????
America wants to the control the oil! thats the only reason they are there..
if there was NO OIL in the middle east they wouldn't be there...
stop the Charade America... its getting old...
you ain't the world police.. you are the world thief! |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Would the USA be prepared for a difficult insurgency like the ones in Iraq and Afghanistan? As much as i dislike Iran (and I do), in order for the USA to invade and occupy Iran would require a particularly extensive brutal action on the part of the US. Iran has lots of little knuckleheads that live in the northern villages just ripe for an insurgency like Afghanistan. Thats how the guy thats in power there now got there, through the villagers in the north. |
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