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Forged signature; what to do?
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Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Forged signature; what to do?

Derrek wrote:

And Gord... can't you read? He was already here on a previous contract. He shouldn't have left for a new E-2 without seeing the contract they forged, though.

I am curious why you are asking about my literacy ability when your own levels are clearly demonstrated to be lower than mine. Look here at how you follow your insult towards me with claims that the poster shouldn't have left the country to get a new E-2 visa when in reality he has clearly written that he never left the country and his visa was extended.

You even quoted it, so I'm not sure how you missed it.

prairieboy

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Location: The batcave.

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject:

Gord wrote:

prairieboy wrote:

So, let me get this...as long as it works for you, criminal activity is ok? Gord, really. It doesn't matter what the contract says. A signature has been forged, which in my opinion is a criminal act.

Your opinion doesn't matter. It's an unlawful act, not criminal. Technically jaywalking is unlawful in Korea, as is speeding. Just because you wish to escalate it to criminal doesn't make it so. But I hear that Korea might be needing a new president in a few months, maybe you should apply for the job and then you can change it from being unlawful to criminal.

True enough, in Korea I don't know if this is a criminal act or not. If it can be prosecuted under Korean law or if there is any remedy provided, I don't know. This is why I said it was my opinion that it is criminal.

However, forgery is a criminal offence in Canada, which is a hybrid offence and is punishable upto 10 years imprisonment. Here's a link so you can save yourself some Google time http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42233.html#section-366

Gord wrote:

It's a signature and nothing more. Ever given out your PIN number to your bank card to anyone else? Essentially the same deal even if the penality is slightly less.

So your signature is nothing? Your signature is legally binding on those documents you sign. Should someone be able to sign your name to a document of any kind and make you liable?

Gord wrote:

Quote:

If that's the way you approach the situation that's your choice. But when it comes to offering advice on what to do in this situation, your advice is really off the mark.

What is wrong with my advice? It's what I would do, it's what other's have done, and it's really a non-issue and done to save a $100, three days, and reduce the chances of things getting lost. So far it's the best advice in this thread.

What's wrong with your advice is that you advocate and support an "unlawful" and possibly criminal act, which may end up with someone being penalized for the actions or intents of another. This was plain bad advice Gord.

EDIT:

By the way, forgery is a criminal act in the Republic of Korea and is punishible upto 5 years imprisonment. This comes from article 232 of the Criminal Code of Korea:

Article 232 (Drafting of Private Document by Assuming a False Capacity) A person who, for the purpose of uttering, a makes a document or drawing which pertains to a right, duty, or a certification of a fact by assuming the capacity of another person, shall be punished by penal servitude for not more than five years.

I'll save you some more Google time. Follow this link http://linux01.gwdg.de/~snam/laws/crimco_e.htm

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:41 am Post subject:

prairieboy wrote:

It's been a long time since I've brushed up on forgery laws in Canada and it's application, but I'm fairly certain that what we have here wouldn't result in any sort of trial or charge. It's uncool what they did, but doesn't meet the level required for fraud because it lacks intent. Plus you've accepted the new work visa and essentially accepted them as acting as an agent on your behalf. We'd have to sit down and bust out the law books, but I won't bet money on it meeting the level of a criminal law violation.

Just like when your friend uses your bankcard to take out $20. That PIN number they plug in is to show that it's you that is using the bank card and you contractually agreed never to share the PIN and should you have agreed that if anyone learned the PIN that you would immediately change it.

That friend taking $20 out of your bank account because you gave him the card and your PIN crosses the same lines you're accusing your school of crossing now.

Quote:

So your signature is nothing? Your signature is legally binding on those documents you sign. Should someone be able to sign your name to a document of any kind and make you liable?

The law doesn't work that way. Someone right now could be going on a rampage through Canada running up gambling debts, credit cards, and buying bridges while pretending to be me, and even signing the bridges themselves after signing the contracts. It doesn't matter.

Your signature is simply physical evidence to support the claim that a contract was considered and accepted. It's not any sort of magic button that makes everything legal.

Quote:

It's called making the best of choice of a difficult situation. To do it your way, I've already summarized what can happen: ...you're setting yourself up for a forced deportation, blacklisting, possible jail time, and a huge cash penalty for entering the country illegally and working without a valid work visa.

I don't know about you, but my time machine is broken so going back into the past isn't an option. Thus my idea of "shut up and smile since you got what you want" is far better than your idea of jail, fines, and deportations.

Quote:

By the way, forgery is a criminal act in the Republic of Korea and is punishible upto 5 years imprisonment. This comes from article 232 of the Criminal Code of Korea:

Article 232 (Drafting of Private Document by Assuming a False Capacity) A person who, for the purpose of uttering, a makes a document or drawing which pertains to a right, duty, or a certification of a fact by assuming the capacity of another person, shall be punished by penal servitude for not more than five years.

I'll save you some more Google time. Follow this link http://linux01.gwdg.de/~snam/laws/crimco_e.htm

You are aware that if we run with the ball and scream "Article 232!", they will also scream "article 230!" and possibly arrest the OP because at some point he was involved with everything. Last I checked, ARC things have to be done by the card holder and since his card was extended he was using documents he knew were acquired by false means to extend his work visa.

I am curious as to why you want the OP to be jailed, fined, and deported. Or did you just not consider the bigger picture?

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 am Post subject:

Gord wrote:

That friend taking $20 out of your bank account because you gave him the card and your PIN crosses the same lines you're accusing your school of crossing now.

If you give your friend your ATM card and PIN, you have consented to him having those.

Did the OP say that he consented to the school approving and executing the contract on his behalf?

And on an unrelated note, would you happen to know if the Province of British Columbia prints the holder's citizenship status on the drivers licenses it issues?

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:04 am Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

If you give your friend your ATM card and PIN, you have consented to him having those.

My last bank in Canada very clearly stated that doing that was not an option, and a violation of our contract. My friend using my card would essentially be an act of fraud under our contract as the bank believes it is giving the money to me.

Quote:

Did the OP say that he consented to the school approving and executing the contract on his behalf?

He agreed to the contract, thus we no longer have criminal intent as trying to save time isn't illegal. I have no knowledge of Korean law beyond the basics we cover on this forum, so I wouldn't know that it was completely non-criminal, but it appears that in Canada it would not be criminal. Unlawful, yes.

I'm not saying that it was greatest thing ever that the school forged the signature, but I see why they did it and just want to point out that the time to scream bloody murder about it has since past and any noise will only cause far more pain to come down on the OP than to the school.

Quote:

And on an unrelated note, would you happen to know if the Province of British Columbia prints the holder's citizenship status on the drivers licenses it issues?

I've actually looked for mine since you asked before. I pulled it out of my wallet a couple months back as it expired, and I haven't found it yet and it wasn't where I thought it should be. I'm pretty sure it does list nationality, so I was going to scan it and post it up.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:11 am Post subject:

Gord wrote:

dogbert wrote:

If you give your friend your ATM card and PIN, you have consented to him having those.

Actually, it's not the greatest analogy, because your PIN and ATM card, unlike your signature, is something that a third party grants to you and may therefore come with conditions.

Your signature, however, is something innately yours, no?

Then again, didn't you state that fraud required a showing of intent? How would that be fraud if neither you nor your friend intended to defraud the bank?

dogbert wrote:

And on an unrelated note, would you happen to know if the Province of British Columbia prints the holder's citizenship status on the drivers licenses it issues?

Gord wrote:

Thank you. I'm curious to know, obviously in light of our discussion on the video store topic. You certainly don't have to scan it; I don't doubt your word one way or the other.

California drivers licenses do not indicate the holder's nationality, which has caused some consternation as it is periodically alleged that illegal aliens have been granted drivers licenses.

Gord

Joined: 25 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:27 am Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

A signature is just a physical form to showcase acceptance of an agreement and carries no more and no less validity than an oral contratual agreement.

Your "signature" could be a note saying "You are not God". Which, I might add, I have first hand experience in doing. I used to sign my rent cheques like that when my landlord decided to jack up my rent at my store. So I had two signatures on file. One my actual signature, the other being my "you are not God" note.

Quote:

Then again, didn't you state that fraud required a showing of intent? How would that be fraud if neither you nor your friend intended to defraud the bank?

Exactly. Now change "friend" with "school" and "bank" with "Immigration".

Quote:

California drivers licenses do not indicate the holder's nationality, which has caused some consternation as it is periodically alleged that illegal aliens have been granted drivers licenses.

That's just madness. I just couldn't see myself walking up into the DMV in Seattle and saying "hey, how ya doing, what say you give me one of those licenses and I'll be on my way." without proof that I was a citizen.

Gwangjuboy

Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:43 am Post subject:

I am not sure about the legal repercussions of this incident in Korean law, but I understand that in the UK there probably wouldn't be a prosecution. However, if the contract had been altered to the director's benefit (not the case here), then things coud be different. Also, a contract can be frustrated on an issue of illegality. Thus, if the OP wants, he can have the contract frustrated (waste a lot of time) and then sign a new one. Frankly, I don't see the big problem. Just get stuck into the job, and forget about it.

lawyertood

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul, Incheon and the World--working undercover for the MOJ

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:49 am Post subject:

No harm, no foul.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

Gord wrote:

A signature is just a physical form to showcase acceptance of an agreement and carries no more and no less validity than an oral contractual agreement.

Well, there are differences between written and oral contracts.

But the issue here is someone else using your signature.

Gord wrote:

Your "signature" could be a note saying "You are not God". Which, I might add, I have first hand experience in doing. I used to sign my rent cheques like that when my landlord decided to jack up my rent at my store. So I had two signatures on file. One my actual signature, the other being my "you are not God" note.

I like that a lot.

Then again, that's you signing the check. If someone gets ahold of your checkbook and starts signing your checks with your name, problems arise.

dogbert wrote:

California drivers licenses do not indicate the holder's nationality, which has caused some consternation as it is periodically alleged that illegal aliens have been granted drivers licenses.

Gord wrote:

I may be wrong, but I believe that even in B.C., non-citizens can obtain provincial drivers licenses. Obviously, they would have to show proof that they are in Canada legally, though.

Zed

Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject:

lawyertood wrote:

No harm, no foul.

If the forged contract IS the same as what was agreed upon before starting the extension.

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