|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| recessiontime wrote: |
Let's stick to police. Everyone can pay taxes if they want to. That money will be used for police. If you don't want to pay taxes you don't have to. Cops will selectively not help you when you call 911. You'll have to pay a lot of money for police if you opt not to pay taxes. You have a choice in this kind of world. In the world you live in, you don't have one.
This would work. Whether it satisfies your tastes is another story. |
Not workable. The police benefits everyone regardless of if it's direct or not. The fact that criminals wouldn't know who benefits from police protection or not would drive crime down in general. Common goods aren't choices, aren't intended to be, and can't be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
Let's stick to police. Everyone can pay taxes if they want to. That money will be used for police. If you don't want to pay taxes you don't have to. Cops will selectively not help you when you call 911. You'll have to pay a lot of money for police if you opt not to pay taxes. You have a choice in this kind of world. In the world you live in, you don't have one.
This would work. Whether it satisfies your tastes is another story. |
Not workable. The police benefits everyone regardless of if it's direct or not. The fact that criminals wouldn't know who benefits from police protection or not would drive crime down in general. Common goods aren't choices, aren't intended to be, and can't be. |
Dismissed with 2 words, not workable. You don't want it to work or you simply can't comprehend a world different to the one you live in.
So what if police unintentionally benefit non-tax payers as you mentioned. You can still end up in trouble one day and might need help. More of a reason to pay you taxes and if you can't then you might be trouble one day. You make it sound like nobody would opt to pay their taxes for police work. By your logic we can't have private physicians because the population would benefit from having healthy people. Nope, we can't have it.
Have you ever been to a gated community before? how do you think that works? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
Let's stick to police. Everyone can pay taxes if they want to. That money will be used for police. If you don't want to pay taxes you don't have to. Cops will selectively not help you when you call 911. You'll have to pay a lot of money for police if you opt not to pay taxes. You have a choice in this kind of world. In the world you live in, you don't have one.
This would work. Whether it satisfies your tastes is another story. |
Not workable. The police benefits everyone regardless of if it's direct or not. The fact that criminals wouldn't know who benefits from police protection or not would drive crime down in general. Common goods aren't choices, aren't intended to be, and can't be. |
Dismissed with 2 words, not workable. You don't want it to work or you simply can't comprehend a world different to the one you live in.
So what if police do benefit non-tax payers as you mentioned. That's just more of a reason to pay you taxes and if you can't then you might be trouble one day. By your logic we can't have private physicians because the population would benefit from having healthy people.
Have you ever been to a gated community before? What do you think that is? |
Everyone benefits, everyone pays, it's simple. The crime rate is affected by the presence of the police to the benefit of everyone. Criminals running free disadvantages everyone. What you are describing is a protection racket. A gated community is micro, police is macro. Not Workable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| A gated community is micro, police is macro. Not Workable. |
I see, so what is possible on a small scale is not possible on a larger scale.
That makes no sense. Give me a reason why this wouldn't work? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| A gated community is micro, police is macro. Not Workable. |
I see, so what is possible on a small scale is not possible on a larger scale.
That makes no sense. Give me a reason why this wouldn't work? |
Despite the several I've already given you, you have to buy into a gated community. What you in essence are arguing is that if you can't afford police protection you have no recourse. That makes it a protection racket. It would also provide a perverse profit motive where the police would benefit from a increase in crime, do you see how that would be a problem? Perhaps a conflict of interest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
When the government provides what you call "basic services" it either owns or controls the means of production of those services and hence it is socialist.
There is nothing provided by the government that is needed by the people that will not be provided better and cheaper in a free market. Nothing.
Everything that the government provides that is needed can be provided through voluntary free market financing.
There are, of course, things that some other people want and are unwilling to pay for, so they prefer to use the socialist method of stealing money in the name of government instead of paying themselves. This is socialism. Socialists are the greediest people on Earth. They not only want to keep what is theirs, they want to force others to pay for things they want, but they don't want badly enough to pay themselves - so they use the power of the state to steal the money through taxation. |
How do you have a police force for profit? Prisons? Would you want a for profit military? Your ideas don't work. |
Nearly every individual works for his or her own personal profit. Police officers and soldiers usually get paid.
In a free market, organizations do not have to work for a profit. There are many cooperative and voluntary methods of organization available in a free market absent the force of the state that will provide needed services better on a voluntary basis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
Let's stick to police. Everyone can pay taxes if they want to. That money will be used for police. If you don't want to pay taxes you don't have to. Cops will selectively not help you when you call 911. You'll have to pay a lot of money for police if you opt not to pay taxes. You have a choice in this kind of world. In the world you live in, you don't have one.
This would work. Whether it satisfies your tastes is another story. |
Not workable. The police benefits everyone regardless of if it's direct or not. The fact that criminals wouldn't know who benefits from police protection or not would drive crime down in general. Common goods aren't choices, aren't intended to be, and can't be. |
There is no such thing as a common good. There is no government service that benefits everyone. Most benefit no one but the government itself. Government makes life worse for all except itself and a occasionally, a select group of special interests: Federal Reserve, Military industrial complex, teachers unions (not teachers, students, parents) etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| A gated community is micro, police is macro. Not Workable. |
I see, so what is possible on a small scale is not possible on a larger scale.
That makes no sense. Give me a reason why this wouldn't work? |
Despite the several I've already given you, you have to buy into a gated community. What you in essence are arguing is that if you can't afford police protection you have no recourse. That makes it a protection racket. It would also provide a perverse profit motive where the police would benefit from a increase in crime, do you see how that would be a problem? Perhaps a conflict of interest. |
Oh don't worry about profit motive. Last I checked crime is rampant everywhere. They'd move somewhere before turning to corruption. And if they did turn to corruption they'd be criminals themselves. Offenders can be sued, fined or jailed just like company workers.
If I lived in a non-gated community I can protect myself with a knife/gun/whatever. I imagine that would be the recourse of others that cannot afford it to pay basic taxes.
Oh and people would obviously have more than enough money to cover this tax because with no other taxes, they'd have a lot more money to spend on things. You have no idea how much you get taxed in your daily life. It's not just income tax, their state tax, goods and service taxes, not to mention the hidden inflationary tax of printing stimulus money and increasing the supply of fiat currency. I'm just saying that you wouldn't have to worry about people not having enough money.
I know something like this is unlikely |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It would also provide a perverse profit motive where the police would benefit from a increase in crime, do you see how that would be a problem? Perhaps a conflict of interest |
.
Police benefit now from increases in crime: higher pay levels and more overtime for low skilled/low IQ/uneducated mostly unemployable cops.
We have to get the government out of the system so we can reverse the incentives. Crime should not pay for cops just as it shouldn't pay for criminals. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| recessiontime wrote: |
You talk of bad police officers but you have yet to give one example where they acted in such a way. When we give you very clear cut examples of police brutality you try to spin the issue by saying it's hard being a cop or by blaming the victim. It makes me question whether you have properly thought out the issue before giving out your gut-feeling reaction.
|
I already cited the cops in the "Don't Tase me Bro" situation and the cops bashing the guys head against the wall in NOLA as being excessive and out of line.
Same with the 90 year old granny who was gunned down in her home.
Since I can look at a situation and say in some cases a cop was excessive and in other cases they were not I think my judgment is just fine. If you scan these forums for the thread on Henry Louis Gates I thought the cops were excessive. I believe that bacasper and fox both defended the cops in that case.
Not all police related deaths are the result of police brutality. Some are, some aren't. But I think you're taking a knee jerk reaction and not examining the chain of events which led to the death.
| Quote: |
Yes. At that point, having been pistol whipped by a robber or locked in a cooler, it becomes obvious that the cops are not only evil fascists toward the innocent, they are also clueless and useless in defending the innocent against criminals.
Cops primarily violate the rights of the innocent and seldom serve any useful purpose. |
So its the cops fault that you are robbed?
You complain about cops being fascist, then you complain that they aren't there or aren't effective in preventing crime. In other words if cops go right you think they should go left. If cops go left you think they should go right. It doesn't matter what decision they make, since they are cops they are automatically wrong.
Do you know what a society without police is like? Basically the wild west where everyone walks around armed. It may be relatively safe, but it is not some utopia and the same abuses of power occur, only this time by gangs/corporations and not the police.
| Quote: |
| The cops are never there when they're needed. They're too busy tasing bedridden old ladies on oxygen, arresting grandmothers for pot use, eating doughnuts (an almost universally accurate stereotype in the US), and running down children on bicycles. |
Right because when I read the crime blotter its constant news about old ladies getting gunned down, and I NEVER read a story about "suspects apprehended" 
You're confusing headlines with standard everyday policing. You see a cop brutality story in one city and extrapolate that into cops "gunning down old ladies" in every city all the time. That is not rational thinking.
| Quote: |
| People need to arm themselves and protect themselves. We need to repeal all the victimless crime laws against drug use, prostitution and gambling. |
Can't say I disagree.
| Quote: |
| And finally, we need to privatize the protection services that we actually need and fire the fascist socialist cops. |
So instead of brutal fascist cops we have brutal greedy unaccountable corporate security. You're trading a bunch of thugs for a bunch of hoodlums.
Did it ever occur to you that there is no ideal system and that due to human nature these things are always going to take place?
| Quote: |
| The kid was suspected of trespassing on some vacant lot. Big effin' deal! You tried to get him, he got away (or he should have rather than risk his life. Was his ego so threatened by someone who dare defy him? Had it been a murder suspect or major bank robbery, then he could be more serious. |
You do realize that if cops did that criminals would quickly realize that all they had to do was run away and the cops wouldn't do anything and then it would be open season to commit minor crime.
You seem to think that people who commit crime are some sort of paragons of virtue who are abused by oppressive police. Criminals don't care about your moral code. If they can get something for free by stealing it they are going to and they will adapt.
| Quote: |
| There is nothing provided by the government that is needed by the people that will not be provided better and cheaper in a free market. Nothing. |
National Security.
Are you living in Korea? Which health care system would you rather have? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| eating doughnuts (an almost universally accurate stereotype in the US) |
I gotta say this is, as far as I've seen, absolutely true. WTF is up with American cops and the donuts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| A gated community is micro, police is macro. Not Workable. |
I see, so what is possible on a small scale is not possible on a larger scale.
That makes no sense. Give me a reason why this wouldn't work? |
Despite the several I've already given you, you have to buy into a gated community. What you in essence are arguing is that if you can't afford police protection you have no recourse. That makes it a protection racket. It would also provide a perverse profit motive where the police would benefit from a increase in crime, do you see how that would be a problem? Perhaps a conflict of interest. |
Oh don't worry about profit motive. Last I checked crime is rampant everywhere. They'd move somewhere before turning to corruption. And if they did turn to corruption they'd be criminals themselves. Offenders can be sued, fined or jailed just like company workers.
If I lived in a non-gated community I can protect myself with a knife/gun/whatever. I imagine that would be the recourse of others that cannot afford it to pay basic taxes.
Oh and people would obviously have more than enough money to cover this tax because with no other taxes, they'd have a lot more money to spend on things. You have no idea how much you get taxed in your daily life. It's not just income tax, their state tax, goods and service taxes, not to mention the hidden inflationary tax of printing stimulus money and increasing the supply of fiat currency. I'm just saying that you wouldn't have to worry about people not having enough money.
I know something like this is unlikely |
What you're arguing for is the end of the constitution and the end of the rule of law. The right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness doesn't exist without the rule of law and the rule of law doesn't exist without enforcement. Would you, in your hypothetical situation, pay for the service? I don't think you realize how much of an improvement in your quality of life having the police around has provided. Look at places without the police, or where they are corrupt and you do have to pay them for service, and look at what wonderful places they are. I highly doubt that you are in a high income bracket, so I would say that the returns you've gotten from your tax dollars are probably one of the best returns on investment available.
I know you like Ayn Rand, try reading the Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes for a counterpoint, it might be a bit harder because he doesn't write story books, but it might change your mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The kid was suspected of trespassing on some vacant lot. Big effin' deal! You tried to get him, he got away (or he should have rather than risk his life. Was his ego so threatened by someone who dare defy him?) Had it been a murder suspect or major bank robbery, then he could be more serious. |
You do realize that if cops did that criminals would quickly realize that all they had to do was run away and the cops wouldn't do anything and then it would be open season to commit minor crime. |
Why? It would appear that most criminals chased by cops are caught. It is only the occasional one that gets away. And I already said that in serious cases, more dogged pursuit can be warranted. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
