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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject: Are recruiters necessary? |
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Personally, when I was looking for jobs almost a year ago, I didn't like seeing recruiter ads. I felt that any posting by a recruiter was polishing the job in order to get a placement more easily. Placement equals money. I prefered looking at the jobs posted directly by employer. In fact it is frustrating to look at the job boards and see blah blah consulting ,blah's jobs etc. Often these recruiter ads are lists of jobs with no personal feel.
Then I got to thinking.....
I don't think recruiters are necessary. They have muscled in on a market and make it difficult for teachers to get employed without them, and more difficult for schools to find teachers without them. They do something both schools and teachers are capable of doing by themselves.
Although they may be a little useful and people are going to defend them with various arguments, ultimately what a recruiter does is raise the cost of English education in Korea. Are they so useful as to justify this expense? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are restaurants necessary? We can all go to HomePlus and buy the food, and then cook it ourselves! They only raise the cost of eating! |
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Mankind
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Why are restaurants necessary? We can all go to HomePlus and buy the food, and then cook it ourselves! They only raise the cost of eating! |
Obviously Gord's point is convience. And I would agree with him accept you need to get something for that lost money, and I don't think you get it here. Resturant gives good (we hope) service, cleans up for me, does the cooking, hell they even give a nice round selection of food.
Recruiters in Korea are the equivalant of a construction worker opening a resturant because he built one once. They don't know what they're doing. The same job offered over and over, no follow through, no ease at working there. Once your hired thats really about it. They can't even help you if they want too.
Most recruiting companies in the West have some standard for the employees that place people and the companies they place to. Here, that doesn't exist.
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Mankind wrote: |
Most recruiting companies in the West have some standard for the employees that place people and the companies they place to. Here, that doesn't exist.
HAND |
funny that... not in australia.
they hire 'children' in australia to do these jobs and those 'children' are what is responsible in deciding if you are suitable for the position and whether or not to forward your application on to the potential employer.. many of these positions are also filled by long term unemployed.
job recruiters in australia would have to be the biggest joke around. at the least... a close 2nd to korea.
i hate it. everything is the hands of these boneheads now and this could be the reason for my being self employed most of my adult life.
i try to avoid these people as much as possible |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Why are restaurants necessary? We can all go to HomePlus and buy the food, and then cook it ourselves! They only raise the cost of eating! |
Why are pimps necessary? We can all go downtown, buy the prostitute, and then *******************! They only raise the cost of *******!
If restaurants cornered the food supply market I would have to eat only at restaurants and would be forced to pay for their service because they have all the food and I would be forced to eat it the ways they cook it.
Comparison arguments can be made ad nauseam, and they are useless. Mainly because they bypass the relevant issue.
The issue I want to consider is whether or not recruiters provide a desired service. I think no, that they've muscled a market, and that they add an unnecessary cost to the English industry.
I got both my jobs without a recruiter. When I was looking for the second I e-mailed a few recruiters and got useless replies from all of them. What would happen is that I would look at their ad and think- "I want job #33". I would e-mail the recruiters telling them my interest and get form mail back saying "If you want a job through us please send us your resume and pictures etc. and we will get back to you with some available jobs". I want a particular job, not your general service dumbass. The unfortunate thing was that there were few jobs posted except by these recruiters. The schools had been duped and I had no easy and direct way of contacting them. They had put themselves in the hands of recruiters.
Who pays for these recruiters who have convinced the schools and stand in my way? English students and parents of English students I think.
Undesired service that is an added cost to the English market. |
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Sojuman99
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Location: Leaning Right
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
The issue I want to consider is whether or not recruiters provide a desired service. I think no, that they've muscled a market, and that they add an unnecessary cost to the English industry.
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You may be overlokking the obvious here. The recruiters are providing a service to the schools, some of which couldn't find employees otherwise. That is why the school pays the fee and not the teacher.
Marketing 101 |
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Sojuman99 wrote: |
| phaedrus wrote: |
The issue I want to consider is whether or not recruiters provide a desired service. I think no, that they've muscled a market, and that they add an unnecessary cost to the English industry.
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You may be overlokking the obvious here. The recruiters are providing a service to the schools, some of which couldn't find employees otherwise. That is why the school pays the fee and not the teacher.
Marketing 101 |
we are the ones who get stuffed around... theres no way i'd pay money to get stuffed around. certainly the school (therefore the students) must pay.
| Quote: |
| I got both my jobs without a recruiter. When I was looking for the second I e-mailed a few recruiters and got useless replies from all of them. What would happen is that I would look at their ad and think- "I want job #33". I would e-mail the recruiters telling them my interest and get form mail back saying "If you want a job through us please send us your resume and pictures etc. and we will get back to you with some available jobs". I want a particular job, not your general service dumbass. |
i have worked at 4 different places here. 2 jobs through recruiters. 1, i walked out on in 3 weeks, the recruiter was full of shit and the guy wasnt gunna send me for my e2.. the 2nd, the recruiter put me in direct contact with the employer after showing my resume to the employer. that was sweet... but the rest of the time i was in the same boat as phaedrus and they would rarely get back to me at all... i would say.. i would like to apply for the position in gwang ju.. 2 weeks later i would get a phone call with something like... we have a position in busan, they need someone to start asap.. that is total crap if ya ask me
the other 2 were directly posted by the school... they were the best 2 jobs i had here. |
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Sojuman99
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Location: Leaning Right
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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It's still MKT 101
Pull your book off the shelf and look up -
Market
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Service |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| wylde wrote: |
| we are the ones who get stuffed around... theres no way i'd pay money to get stuffed around. certainly the school (therefore the students) must pay. |
But if you were to pay, you would get jobs like I have doing government work or other high end, high paying jobs. When I work full time, my agent makes a million Won a month off me. But in exchange, I would make five times that.
If all you do is use an agent like you would a newspaper classified, then that's all you'll get in return.
When the agent is paid by the school, the agent works for the school. When the agent is paid by you, they work for you. Once a person understands this very simple reality, things suddenly fall into place. |
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Mankind
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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But if you were to pay, you would get jobs like I have doing government work or other high end, high paying jobs. When I work full time, my agent makes a million Won a month off me. But in exchange, I would make five times that.
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I understand this Gord, but what do they do to 'earn' their money? They introduce you. It's illegal for companies to hire direct so they go through a recruiter (still illegal but it creates distance) and run your pay through them. The recruiter simply works as a go between for your income, of which they take 25-40% in most cases. Do you really think your recruiter has done enough work to warrent you paying them 15 thousand dollars a year? It's the system we have to work in but it sucks, and we'd all be better off if companies could hire directly and we could cut off the excess weight.
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| job recruiters in australia would have to be the biggest joke around. |
That sucks. One more reason I won't go to Australia, the other is spiders.
HAND |
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| But if you were to pay, you would get jobs like I have doing government work or other high end, high paying jobs. When I work full time, my agent makes a million Won a month off me. But in exchange, I would make five times that. |
i am fine with that.. unfortunately i don't know of any agents like that in korea.
reverse the situation & it would be different. but, i was refering to the general situation of recruiting for esl positions here.
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| That sucks. One more reason I won't go to Australia, the other is spiders. |
australia is a beautiful country. don't get me wrong, i love it. but.... things are changing. in some areas, unfortunately, it is for the worse. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mankind wrote: |
| I understand this Gord, but what do they do to 'earn' their money? They introduce you. It's illegal for companies to hire direct so they go through a recruiter (still illegal but it creates distance) and run your pay through them. The recruiter simply works as a go between for your income, of which they take 25-40% in most cases. Do you really think your recruiter has done enough work to warrent you paying them 15 thousand dollars a year? It's the system we have to work in but it sucks, and we'd all be better off if companies could hire directly and we could cut off the excess weight. |
It doesn't bother me at all. My agent sells me when people need someone, tells them exactly what I can do, translates for any issues or feedback, handles the taxation issues, and prepares everything to do with my transportation. Without it, I wouldn't have had the job and I would be forced into taking a far lower paying job. The same time, am I really worth being paid $40 an hour to compare Korean and western cultural differences? Hell no, but doesn't mean I won't gladly do it.
It's a service that I pay for, and I have no problem paying for. And she does many things for me which I greatly appreciate. Many people here don't like the idea of paying for a recruiter, then so be it. They can enjoy their low-end of the scale paying jobs. Power to them. I'm prepared to hire someone and pay them very well in return for lining me up jobs that pay for more in exchange.
Without that agent, I probably wouldn't have got the job and then I would be making less than a third of what I am now just like most people here. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Gord,
I have to agree with your method of employing and paying an agent. Networking is huge over here. Moreso than anywhere else that I've seen. Paying a placement commission to a well-connected and trusted Korean can yield huge results.
I have a Korean friend who owns a budongsan (real estate brokerage) with tons of contacts. He helped me find a new apartment and we developed a friendship from there. After a few months of hanging out, he began to refer private gigs to me that came through his word-of-mouth. He loaded my schedule up and now has to refer opportunity to my other teaching friends.
I usually pay at him at a rate of 10-20% depending on the situation, finances, and the amount of attention that he may need to put in (ongoing collections and re-scheduling of students/group lessons, transportation, etc...).
It may seem like a lot to pay out to a guy finding you work, but we're not necessarily talking about garden-variety 30,000/hr, twice a week gigs, either. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: |
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I think someone mistook this thread for the "benefits of an agent" thread.
Recruiters and agents are two very different things. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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The point being that an agent is a recruiter doing the same job in reverse. I could just as easily go out and look for the jobs myself, upsell myself, and do all the running around, but it's not really worth my while when I know I can just pay an agent who will handle everything for me and just tells me where to go.
Same deal with a recruiter. Most schools don't know what really works for finding teachers, don't have a system set up to screen-out obvious no-hopers, and aren't familiar with what all has to be done. Sure, they could do all the running around, but it's not really worth their while when they know they can just pay an agent who will handle everything for them and just tell them where to pick up the teacher.
If recruiting was really so simple, it woudn't cost a thousand dollars a teacher and every school would be doing it already. |
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