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Jmancha
Joined: 01 Aug 2010
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 Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: Am I on the right path? |
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To those with experience and answers, I�m a newbie and I�m looking for some guidance. I�ve scoured the threads and come to a few conclusions. I�m hoping you guys can tell me if my assertions are right or if I�m way off.
1. In order to be guaranteed a job in Seoul, one needs to find work at a hagwon or university in Seoul.
2. University jobs in Seoul are ridiculously hard to come by if you don�t have experience and an MA in a related field.
3. Hagwons are notorious for not paying and following through on contracts.
4. Large chain hagwons (such as CDI, YBM, Avalon, Wonderland, ect.) are among the few that I can count on to follow through on contracts.
5. Large chain hagwons are generally suck to work at (Wonderland especially).
6. The large chain hagwon that does not suck as much as the rest is Avalon.
This is what I gather after having read through many of the threads. If any of these statements are wrong, please guide me in the right direction.
Also, I�ve read many people say �Avalon�s not that bad for a hagwon, but if you really search you can find better.� I don�t understand where I�m supposed to look for these better jobs. If I can�t trust anyone other than a large and well known hagwon, and Avalon is supposed to be the best of these, what jobs are people referring to and where do I find them?
One more question. I would really like to be able to come home for Christmas. I understand this may not be possible, but it would mean a lot if I could find a way. I�ve read several threads where some individuals have argued that one should attempt to negotiate for that week off (unpaid) and have it written into the initial contract. Others have stated that 5 of the 10 allotted vacation days should be used during this time. Is either of these statements correct?
My stats are as follows:
1. 28 year old Latino American male citizen.
2. Bachelors in political science minoring in philosophy and English from a crappy local university none of you have heard of.
3. Juris Doctorate (law degree) from a top 15 law school in the US.
4. LLM (one step past JD) in human rights law from a top 5 law school in England.
5. Working on completing a 120hr online TEFL through ITTT.
Based on all this, I�m contemplating attempting a job with Avalon somewhere in Seoul (the only area of SK I�m interested in) this September/October and somehow negotiating time off for Christmas if it�s possible. I�ve put together all required documents and will start applying directly to Avalon tomorrow along with using footprints recruiting. Am I on the right path or am I way off? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| Jmancha wrote: |
To those with experience and answers, I�m a newbie and I�m looking for some guidance. I�ve scoured the threads and come to a few conclusions. I�m hoping you guys can tell me if my assertions are right or if I�m way off.
1. In order to be guaranteed a job in Seoul, one needs to find work at a hagwon or university in Seoul.
2. University jobs in Seoul are ridiculously hard to come by if you don�t have experience and an MA in a related field.
3. Hagwons are notorious for not paying and following through on contracts.
4. Large chain hagwons (such as CDI, YBM, Avalon, Wonderland, ect.) are among the few that I can count on to follow through on contracts.
5. Large chain hagwons are generally suck to work at (Wonderland especially).
6. The large chain hagwon that does not suck as much as the rest is Avalon.
This is what I gather after having read through many of the threads. If any of these statements are wrong, please guide me in the right direction.
Also, I�ve read many people say �Avalon�s not that bad for a hagwon, but if you really search you can find better.� I don�t understand where I�m supposed to look for these better jobs. If I can�t trust anyone other than a large and well known hagwon, and Avalon is supposed to be the best of these, what jobs are people referring to and where do I find them?
One more question. I would really like to be able to come home for Christmas. I understand this may not be possible, but it would mean a lot if I could find a way. I�ve read several threads where some individuals have argued that one should attempt to negotiate for that week off (unpaid) and have it written into the initial contract. Others have stated that 5 of the 10 allotted vacation days should be used during this time. Is either of these statements correct?
My stats are as follows:
1. 28 year old Latino American male citizen.
2. Bachelors in political science minoring in philosophy and English from a crappy local university none of you have heard of.
3. Juris Doctorate (law degree) from a top 15 law school in the US.
4. LLM (one step past JD) in human rights law from a top 5 law school in England.
5. Working on completing a 120hr online TEFL through ITTT.
Based on all this, I�m contemplating attempting a job with Avalon somewhere in Seoul (the only area of SK I�m interested in) this September/October and somehow negotiating time off for Christmas if it�s possible. I�ve put together all required documents and will start applying directly to Avalon tomorrow along with using footprints recruiting. Am I on the right path or am I way off? |
Assertions:
1) incorrect. You can also get a direct hire to a school or get hired by an independent education office (like Gangnam) if you have the qualifications/experience.
2) mostly correct. For a decent uni position in Seoul you would need experience, connections (networking) and qualifications. You CAN however land jobs in the satellite cities with an unrelated MA and some experience. It's all about the networking after you get here and cut your teeth in the classroom. See other related threads for specifics.
3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans.
4) incorrect. Do not depend on any hagwan to follow through with the contract. They may do so but don't depend on it. The large chains are as bad as or often worse than a mom/pop hagwan when it comes to looking after the foreign staff.
5) Correct. You are nothing more than a cog in the wheel and (for the most part) you will be expected to do it their way.
6) No valid opinion.
The chances of getting home for Christmas are virtually "0" for a newbie in a hagwan. You will get a long weekend out of it this year but for most hagwans Christmas falls at the beginning of the intensive courses (because the regular schools are out for their winter break.
If you want time off for Christmas you will have to land a public school gig or have more luck than most newbies are entitled to.
It does make me curious (answer not required) why someone with your qualifications would want to land an entry level job teaching ESL in Asia and why are you looking for positions off-season. (peak hiring is typically June/July and Jan/Feb.).
(one last side note: not meaning to be demeaning but depending on the color of your skin (darker is worse) you may find racial discrimination to be a strong factor in gaining a job here as well. A little bit of face powder will go a long way in your favor when you get your photos done. Also, don't mention that you are of Latino heritage when you apply for jobs. You are just American).
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D.D.
Joined: 29 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow are jobs in law that hard to come by. I took time out of my profession to teach esl but I wanted to find a way into my profession in asia. Took two years in Korea to find out they wont let westerners into any other professions no matter who your contacts are, so I left korea. |
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lukas
Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| D.D. wrote: |
| Wow are jobs in law that hard to come by. I took time out of my profession to teach esl but I wanted to find a way into my profession in asia. Took two years in Korea to find out they wont let westerners into any other professions no matter who your contacts are, so I left korea. |
The market is pretty bad so jobs are hard to come by like everyone else, but I wouldn't say this is 100% of the case. My friend started out teaching English in Korea, but now he is working in an I.T. firm and has been for 10+ years. I'd say that if you can't speak Korea, as most westerners don't, you'll have a hard time finding work here other than as an English teacher.
Is the case very different in the West? How often do find a foreigner who speaks no English in a good job? Not very often. Only one that comes to mind was my Chinese Physics TA in college. Come to think of it, he probably was only an intern. |
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mm
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hey OP-
Have you checked out higheredjobs.com?
And clicked on the international job listings?
I saw some jobs for people with law degrees a while back, lecturing at a university in Korea, I think maybe it was the Catholic University of Korea and a couple of others.
Anyways good luck! |
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Jmancha
Joined: 01 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Jmancha wrote: |
To those with experience and answers, I�m a newbie and I�m looking for some guidance. I�ve scoured the threads and come to a few conclusions. I�m hoping you guys can tell me if my assertions are right or if I�m way off.
1. In order to be guaranteed a job in Seoul, one needs to find work at a hagwon or university in Seoul.
2. University jobs in Seoul are ridiculously hard to come by if you don�t have experience and an MA in a related field.
3. Hagwons are notorious for not paying and following through on contracts.
4. Large chain hagwons (such as CDI, YBM, Avalon, Wonderland, ect.) are among the few that I can count on to follow through on contracts.
5. Large chain hagwons are generally suck to work at (Wonderland especially).
6. The large chain hagwon that does not suck as much as the rest is Avalon.
This is what I gather after having read through many of the threads. If any of these statements are wrong, please guide me in the right direction.
Also, I�ve read many people say �Avalon�s not that bad for a hagwon, but if you really search you can find better.� I don�t understand where I�m supposed to look for these better jobs. If I can�t trust anyone other than a large and well known hagwon, and Avalon is supposed to be the best of these, what jobs are people referring to and where do I find them?
One more question. I would really like to be able to come home for Christmas. I understand this may not be possible, but it would mean a lot if I could find a way. I�ve read several threads where some individuals have argued that one should attempt to negotiate for that week off (unpaid) and have it written into the initial contract. Others have stated that 5 of the 10 allotted vacation days should be used during this time. Is either of these statements correct?
My stats are as follows:
1. 28 year old Latino American male citizen.
2. Bachelors in political science minoring in philosophy and English from a crappy local university none of you have heard of.
3. Juris Doctorate (law degree) from a top 15 law school in the US.
4. LLM (one step past JD) in human rights law from a top 5 law school in England.
5. Working on completing a 120hr online TEFL through ITTT.
Based on all this, I�m contemplating attempting a job with Avalon somewhere in Seoul (the only area of SK I�m interested in) this September/October and somehow negotiating time off for Christmas if it�s possible. I�ve put together all required documents and will start applying directly to Avalon tomorrow along with using footprints recruiting. Am I on the right path or am I way off? |
Assertions:
1) incorrect. You can also get a direct hire to a school or get hired by an independent education office (like Gangnam) if you have the qualifications/experience.
2) mostly correct. For a decent uni position in Seoul you would need experience, connections (networking) and qualifications. You CAN however land jobs in the satellite cities with an unrelated MA and some experience. It's all about the networking after you get here and cut your teeth in the classroom. See other related threads for specifics.
3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans.
4) incorrect. Do not depend on any hagwan to follow through with the contract. They may do so but don't depend on it. The large chains are as bad as or often worse than a mom/pop hagwan when it comes to looking after the foreign staff.
5) Correct. You are nothing more than a cog in the wheel and (for the most part) you will be expected to do it their way.
6) No valid opinion.
The chances of getting home for Christmas are virtually "0" for a newbie in a hagwan. You will get a long weekend out of it this year but for most hagwans Christmas falls at the beginning of the intensive courses (because the regular schools are out for their winter break.
If you want time off for Christmas you will have to land a public school gig or have more luck than most newbies are entitled to.
It does make me curious (answer not required) why someone with your qualifications would want to land an entry level job teaching ESL in Asia and why are you looking for positions off-season. (peak hiring is typically June/July and Jan/Feb.).
(one last side note: not meaning to be demeaning but depending on the color of your skin (darker is worse) you may find racial discrimination to be a strong factor in gaining a job here as well. A little bit of face powder will go a long way in your favor when you get your photos done. Also, don't mention that you are of Latino heritage when you apply for jobs. You are just American).
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Thanks for the advice. It really is frustrating to hear that there are virtually no reliable hagwons. I guess it�s better to at least be conscious of this reality before heading in. As far as applying with large chains, do you think this is a good idea or would I be better off applying with small ones? Are there any fairly reputable hagwons out there that I should be looking into?
I was already aware of the fairly widespread discrimination in South Korea. Luckily I�m not a dark skinned Mexican. As far as Latino�s go, I�m definitely on the lighter side. However, I�m a far cry from blond hair blue eyes (black hair/eyes/beard). I�ll be sure to powder up and maybe play with the exposure.
As for the reasons behind my desire to pursue an entry level ESL job in Korea, I�m more than happy to provide this info. I do intend on pursuing a legal career but before doing so I�d like to acquire a little more life experience. I spent my last year of law school in England and loved living abroad and traveling. I�d like this experience again and being that I�m relatively young (late 20's) with no wife or children (aka no responsibilities towards anyone or anything) I�d like to take advantage of this situation while I still can. I�m applying right now as opposed to Jan/Feb because I�m living in my parents� house and desperately need a change of scenery. I really can�t see myself making it until January.
On a side note, yes, jobs in the legal profession are scarce. It�s not my sole reason for attempting ESL in Korea, but I am hoping the job market in the legal field picks up in a couple of years when I plan on returning and starting my career. |
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D.D.
Joined: 29 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Come to shanghai - a lot more fun than Korea , easy to find esl work and jobs for lawyers. |
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mm
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| jesus D.D. everyone gets your point, you live in China now. Every post you have just made mentions how you live in China. So the question remains, why are you frequenting a Korean Forum if you are currently living in China? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| 3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans. |
"Most" strikes me as some serious hyperbole here, as I know lots of people who've worked at hagwons and not had any issue getting either of these things. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| northway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| 3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans. |
"Most" strikes me as some serious hyperbole here, as I know lots of people who've worked at hagwons and not had any issue getting either of these things. |
Approximately how many as a total do you think? Something like only 1-2 % have problems?? Somebody else with a username very similar to yours used spout that ridiculous stat but never seemed to be able to back it up? Wasnt you perchance, was it? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| 3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans. |
"Most" strikes me as some serious hyperbole here, as I know lots of people who've worked at hagwons and not had any issue getting either of these things. |
Approximately how many as a total do you think? Something like only 1-2 % have problems?? Somebody else with a username very similar to yours used spout that ridiculous stat but never seemed to be able to back it up? Wasnt you perchance, was it? |
No, I'm new here. What "stat" did I spout? I'm just saying that I know more people who work at hagwons who haven't had problems with health insurance or pension (not to say that there haven't been other problems) than those who have had problems. I think a lot of people have problems at hagwons, and I know a lot of people who have had problems at hagwons, I just don't know many people who have specifically had issue with health insurance or pension. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:30 am Post subject: |
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My basis for that statement was more than 8 years of work at one of the foreigner help centers and in excess of 10,000 claims/complaints (crossing my desk) over that time of hagwon workers NOT receiving NHIC or NPS (in addition to all the other complaints like pay problems, over taxation, etc).
It has been my personal experience over the last 2 years that there has NOT been any significant change in this and it is still a common problem among hagwan workers (in spite of their contracts saying they are employees they are usually recorded as "contracted workers" and "not eligible" for the employee tax rates or NHIC/NPS (a common lie).
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
My basis for that statement was more than 8 years of work at one of the foreigner help centers and in excess of 10,000 claims/complaints (crossing my desk) over that time of hagwon workers NOT receiving NHIC or NPS (in addition to all the other complaints like pay problems, over taxation, etc).
It has been my personal experience over the last 2 years that there has NOT been any significant change in this and it is still a common problem among hagwan workers (in spite of their contracts saying they are employees they are usually recorded as "contracted workers" and "not eligible" for the employee tax rates or NHIC/NPS (a common lie).
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I'm not denying that it happens a lot, but most of the people I know here work at hagwons and I've only talked to one person who has had a problem with pension or health insurance. One thing I will say is that the fewer foreign teachers employed at a school, the more likely it is that there will be some kind of issues with shadiness. Of the problems I've heard with hagwons, the big ones have all come from folks where they were the only foreign teacher at a given school. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| northway wrote: |
| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| 3) correct. by and large you can expect that you will NOT get NHIC medical nor will you get NPS pension if you work at most hagwans. |
"Most" strikes me as some serious hyperbole here, as I know lots of people who've worked at hagwons and not had any issue getting either of these things. |
Approximately how many as a total do you think? Something like only 1-2 % have problems?? Somebody else with a username very similar to yours used spout that ridiculous stat but never seemed to be able to back it up? Wasnt you perchance, was it? |
No, I'm new here. What "stat" did I spout? I'm just saying that I know more people who work at hagwons who haven't had problems with health insurance or pension (not to say that there haven't been other problems) than those who have had problems. I think a lot of people have problems at hagwons, and I know a lot of people who have had problems at hagwons, I just don't know many people who have specifically had issue with health insurance or pension. |
The unsupported and unreferenced, yet vigorously defended, stat that was used by a poster was first here in this thread (and subsequently in other threads):
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2419208&highlight=#2419208
And sorry if I was mistaken when I asked if it was you, but it was posted only two days before your join date by a poster with a conspicuously similar username. ontheway --- northway It seemed reasonable to me that it may have been you since you were saying something similar so I asked. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Am I on the right path? |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
The unsupported and unreferenced, yet vigorously defended, stat that was used by a poster was first here in this thread (and subsequently in other threads):
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2419208&highlight=#2419208
And sorry if I was mistaken when I asked if it was you, but it was posted only two days before your join date by a poster with a conspicuously similar username. ontheway --- northway It seemed reasonable to me that it may have been you since you were saying something similar so I asked. |
For sure, 1-2% would qualify as significantly worse hyperbole than saying "most" hagwon workers aren't enrolled, I agree. But you're attributing statistics to me because some other fool has a way in his name. |
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