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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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 Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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64% of married women with kids want to work outside the home. Those were the stats from the op's cited 2000 survey. Can the a priori assertion talk. Your mother may be part of the one-third who don't want to, fine. The facts show that most women would like to work outside the home.
And on the other point: Where I come from supermarket employees are unionized, so pay and work conditions are pretty good, and I know a couple of happy mothers of friends who've worked there, NOT as shelf stockers but as cashiers. A lot of people are happy with retail jobs part time, as a way of interaction with others, getting out of the house, having some degree of independence and job satisfaction. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| 64% of married women with kids want to work outside the home. |
The percentage of mothers interested in a full-time career vs. the percentage not interested in one is a far more useful, revealing statistic than the percentage who, "want to work outside the home."
| Louis VI wrote: |
| And on the other point: Where I come from supermarket employees are unionized, so pay and work conditions are pretty good, and I know a couple of happy mothers of friends who've worked there, NOT as shelf stockers but as cashiers. A lot of people are happy with retail jobs part time, as a way of interaction with others, getting out of the house, having some degree of independence and job satisfaction. |
Even in your attempt to construe working part-time in a supermarket as somehow fulfilling, you're highlighting the differences in thought behind someone who wants to work a part-time job, and someone who wants to work a full-time career. These reasons you are listing are generally not reasons someone genuinely interested in a full-time career would be listing as their motivating factors. If a successful businessman were to say to me, "I like my job because it gets me out of the house," I'd assume he was making a joke.
Wanting a little extra money, some time away from the kids, and a little extra social interaction is not the same as wanting a career. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I think these statistics make a bit more sense when combined with these.
| My article wrote: |
Women still do the majority of the household chores, despite their increased participation in the labour market.
Women spend nearly 3 hours a day on average on housework (excluding shopping and childcare). This compares with the one hour 40 minutes spent by men. |
I'd like to see a study that combines the two to see how women with equal (or less) duty in household chores desire a career outside of the home. It's understandable that those who have a much larger share of duties at home don't really feel like working 8 or more hours a day in addition. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
I think these statistics make a bit more sense when combined with these.
| My article wrote: |
Women still do the majority of the household chores, despite their increased participation in the labour market.
Women spend nearly 3 hours a day on average on housework (excluding shopping and childcare). This compares with the one hour 40 minutes spent by men. |
I'd like to see a study that combines the two to see how women with equal (or less) duty in household chores desire a career outside of the home. It's understandable that those who have a much larger share of duties at home don't really feel like working 8 or more hours a day in addition. |
If the average woman does more housework than the average man, selecting for women who do an amount of household work equal to or less than the average man is all ready selecting for an atypical woman. It might be useful when trying to force women to fit a certain currently popular idea of how they should be, but not necessarily as useful if your goal is to understand women as they actually are. |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a single guy and I don't want to work full time either. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| It might be useful when trying to force women to fit a certain currently popular idea of how they should be, but not necessarily as useful if your goal is to understand women as they actually are. |
This is the problem I have with the conclusions that have been drawn from the statistics in the OP. The question asked of the women was simply "What would you prefer?" not "Why do you prefer that?", yet both of these articles assume much more.
Perhaps you're right that women would prefer to stay at home as caretakers. I know I certainly think it's an incredible shame that women with that attitude tend to be reviled rather than reverred in our society. However, the study simply does not provide us with enough to make such a claim with any amount of certainty. Heck, even the title is a little disengenuous; there's quite a large difference between "Married moms don't want to work full-time" and "Married moms that have a disproportionate share of household duties don't want to work full-time." (Though, again, the first could very well be succint enough.)
Do you not think the extra hours women put in at home is relevant to how many hours they would prefer to work outside of the home? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Perhaps you're right that women would prefer to stay at home as caretakers. I know I certainly think it's an incredible shame that women with that attitude tend to be reviled rather than reverred in our society. |
I think it's a shame too. Mothers (or fathers) who stay at home with their children often provide far greater value to our society than they would working a job, not because they're necessarily poor workers, but because parenting is one of the most valuable things a person can do for society.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| However, the study simply does not provide us with enough to make such a claim with any amount of certainty. |
Well, I agree, but I do think this study more or less matches up with the intuition of people who think females are more predisposed towards caretaking than men. Sure, it's not conclusive on its own, but I also don't feel it's meaningless either.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Do you not think the extra hours women put in at home is relevant to how many hours they would prefer to work outside of the home? |
I think it's very relevant. Saying one would rather work part time instead of full time so that one would still have time to do all their chores around the house is an example of the priorities one would expect from someone with an inclination towards family caretaking. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Married moms don't want to work full-time |
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| mises wrote: |
| Women don't want to be men. Go figure. |
The data seems to be about "married Moms with children" not "women." My partner and I are both in hard core career mode until at least 30. There will probably be several years in her life where she will want to work full time as a mother and housewife but will probably want to resume career life afterwards. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Mothers (or fathers) who stay at home [...] |
Bah, I forgot to include the dads in there, too.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Well, I agree, but I do think this study more or less matches up with the intuition of people who think females are more predisposed towards caretaking than men. Sure, it's not conclusive on its own, but I also don't feel it's meaningless either. |
Yeah, you're probably right. My only concern was that the study was being used to assert a bit too much.
As somewhat of an aside, I really like the opinion many Koreans have about stay-at-home moms. Not only are they still acceptable (and encouraged), but they're also expected to have proper qualifications. It used to really bug me when I would hear people back in high school and college rag on girls who planned to stay home with their future children just wasting their education. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Mothers (or fathers) who stay at home [...] |
Bah, I forgot to include the dads in there, too.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Well, I agree, but I do think this study more or less matches up with the intuition of people who think females are more predisposed towards caretaking than men. Sure, it's not conclusive on its own, but I also don't feel it's meaningless either. |
Yeah, you're probably right. My only concern was that the study was being used to assert a bit too much.
As somewhat of an aside, I really like the opinion many Koreans have about stay-at-home moms. Not only are they still acceptable (and encouraged), but they're also expected to have proper qualifications. It used to really bug me when I would hear people back in high school and college rag on girls who planned to stay home with their future children just wasting their education. |
I think that they are in a way wasting their education. Why is it good for the children to have their parents stay home? At a young age yes, but past three or four it's probably a bad thing. Think of all the children that you ever met that were home schooled and think of how well socialized they were. The children benefit more from the socialization that pre school provide. Also when the children go to school what are stay at home moms to do all day? You can only cook and clean so much. What benefit does it provide? It's a waste.
In cold calculation the children would also probably benefit more from the extra money that the mom could bring in for things like a college fund so that they don't have to take out loans then from having her sit around all day. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| [q Think of all the children that you ever met that were home schooled and think of how well socialized they were. . |
I've met quite a number actually. Most were equally socialized as their school-going peers.
I've also met some non home-schoolers who acted incredibly immature for their age.
To list just one thing, many home-schooling mothers regularly have get-togethers where they swap tips while the children play outside and socialize.
http://seerocketcity.com/am/2010/08/11/239/
Not only that but some research indicates that home-schooled children are actually more socialized.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp
According to Dr. Thomas C. Smedley in the above link the home schooled children scored in the 84th percentile while the public schooled kids scored in the 27th percentile. That's quite a gap.
Another researcher Dr. Larry Shyers also found that the home schooled kids did not socially lag their public school peers. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| [q Think of all the children that you ever met that were home schooled and think of how well socialized they were. . |
I've met quite a number actually. Most were equally socialized as their school-going peers.
I've also met some non home-schoolers who acted incredibly immature for their age.
To list just one thing, many home-schooling mothers regularly have get-togethers where they swap tips while the children play outside and socialize.
http://seerocketcity.com/am/2010/08/11/239/
Not only that but some research indicates that home-schooled children are actually more socialized.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp
According to Dr. Thomas C. Smedley in the above link the home schooled children scored in the 84th percentile while the public schooled kids scored in the 27th percentile. That's quite a gap.
Another researcher Dr. Larry Shyers also found that the home schooled kids did not socially lag their public school peers. |
Not really interested in what the home school legal defense association thinks about it. Also what about a diversity of ideas, rather than just mommies ideas? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Also what about a diversity of ideas, rather than just mommies ideas? |
Why not seek out other parents who are also home schooling their children and set up topical discussion groups to provide said diversity? Home schooling isn't some sort of extremist oath of hermitude (hermitage? hermithood?). It's just tending to your child's education yourself rather than relying on a public or private institution. In the internet age, such a discussion group wouldn't even be limited by locational concerns. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Also what about a diversity of ideas, rather than just mommies ideas? |
Why not seek out other parents who are also home schooling their children and set up topical discussion groups to provide said diversity? Home schooling isn't some sort of extremist oath of hermitude (hermitage? hermithood?). It's just tending to your child's education yourself rather than relying on a public or private institution. In the internet age, such a discussion group wouldn't even be limited by locational concerns. |
Of course they could, and I'm sure many do. I find, just from the home schooled people I've met, that parents who home school tend to hold some sort of view that they find incompatible with mainstream education. In most cases I've seen its been the staunchly religious that home school, and they wouldn't be likely to seek out a diversity of ideas. But of course its possible. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Think of all the children that you ever met that were home schooled and think of how well socialized they were. |
That's the case if they're homeschooled by crazy Christians who don't let them contact the outside world, but homeschooling can and is done properly.
When I think of petty criminals, people in trouble with the law, and thugs, they've generally all learned it from their "socialization" during public school. I think public school has a much worse record with "socialization"--if that idea includes being a peaceful, cooperative adult able to deal with society through trade. |
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