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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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"Myocardial infarction is a modern phenomenon, tracking the evolution of industrial farming. I'm saying that if you eat grain/corn-fed meat, you should expect the results you see in that study. And most of the meat out there is just that."
I recal recently reading a history of tobacco smoking and the medical proffessionals writing on the subject contribute the (I believe it was) post 19 Century huge, unpprecedented rise in myocardial infractions primarily to smoking.
Yesterday one of my students was drooling over the thought of steak during a food lesson. I went to the supermarket on the way home and bought a 10oz rump steak and flash fried it in it's own juices for about 3 minutes, no oil, and then ate it plain with no sacue, no nothing all by itself.
MMMMmmmmmm.
Steak......
I think there is something in the 'heavy meat diet = shorter lifespan' idea though. Meat is very difficult for our organs to process. Einstein said that giving up meat was the one most imortant thing our species could do for our future and there are some folks that think the guy knew what he was talking about. |
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Rothbard
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotwire wrote: |
"Myocardial infarction is a modern phenomenon, tracking the evolution of industrial farming. I'm saying that if you eat grain/corn-fed meat, you should expect the results you see in that study. And most of the meat out there is just that."
I recal recently reading a history of tobacco smoking and the medical proffessionals writing on the subject contribute the (I believe it was) post 19 Century huge, unpprecedented rise in myocardial infractions primarily to smoking. |
people were smoking before the 19th century. King James I/V wrote a famous treatise on smoking in the 17th century.
| Quote: |
| Yesterday one of my students was drooling over the thought of steak during a food lesson. I went to the supermarket on the way home and bought a 10oz rump steak and flash fried it in it's own juices for about 3 minutes, no oil, and then ate it plain with no sacue, no nothing all by itself. |
My local Lotte Mart has t-bone for about 10,000 each. I usually turn my gas burner up as high as it will go and fry it in a little ghee (butter with the milk taken out). 2mins on one side a minute on the other. That way it is a blackened husk on the outside with a medium layer and a still raw layer. I like well done, but I don't like cutting straight into raw flesh, there has to be a little cooked part.
I usually cover it in butter or cheese source (simmer cream for 20 mins then add cheese.), and a side of half a head of broccoli.
MMMMmmmmmm.
Steak......
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| I think there is something in the 'heavy meat diet = shorter lifespan' idea though. Meat is very difficult for our organs to process. Einstein said that giving up meat was the one most imortant thing our species could do for our future and there are some folks that think the guy knew what he was talking about. |
You mean it sits in your colon for 6 months right? And rots in your gut?  |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Rothbard"]
| drydell wrote: |
the thing that's new is that it compared a low-carb animal based diet with a low-carb vegetable based diet over a substantial period of time - a bit surprising considering how the low-carb diet is mostly new
(diet as in standard food consumption). |
Not new.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Banting
Yes and Pythagoras was a vegetarian -so what? it's only really in the last 10 years that low-carbs became the latest fad diet for the masses. the point is that it's a new study - properly peer reviewed that finds that an animal based low carb diet kills you earlier than a vege based low carb one - it's new evidence not just speculation
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To most people moderation would still mean meat and 2 veg for every meal... and they will still end up getting premature cancers and heart disease with that diet. The evidence stacking up is overwhelming..... |
The news is not a very good source. Try posting some primary sources. There is very little real evidence to support this claim. You will find piles of biased articles and poorly conducted studies.
I did post some primary sources too - and the original link was one such - c'mon you can do better than that..
Bacon and sausages contribute to bowel cancer. If I remember correctly, that study followed 200 people, and the total difference was about 3 people. ie, three more people got bowel cancer. Processed meat probably isn't good for you though. Doesn't say anything about low carb though. Those people probably ate there sausages in a white bread bun.
Processed meats again. And found no link with death.
ok what about a 300,000 person study?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/181874.php
and another.....(including not processed meat)
http://www.imhealth.com/newsletter/pdf/Diet/newsletter%20diet%205-2.pdf
Has nothing to do with low carb. Another dodgy study if I remember.
Dodgy according to who? The Weston Price Foundation loonies probably?
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http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Saturated-fat-risk-more-evidence
You could probably pick another data set that shows the opposite.
The amassed evidence is huge. that is why 99% of nutritionists and scientists in this field accept that saturated fat is responsible for heart disease with only a handful of shrill denialist (as with Global Warming) spreading misinformation. Does it make you wonder that the only people who consistently reverse serious heart disease in people through diet is Caldwell B. Esselstyn - one of the most internationally respected heart surgery experts (and now others such as Dean Ornish) - all though adherence to a a strict plant diet the heart disease is totally reversed - no stents/meds or bypasses needed... now you show me evidence that a high-fatty meat diet can do that - it simple can't... it's just a fantasy of the extreme low-carb disciples
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regarding taste - I'm not going to argue that meat and dairy products haven't been made to taste really really nice - but that's because basically you're being hit with a fat, salt, sugar taste bomb... it's so hard to resist..we all love it but it's gonna kill us early is the facts of the matter... |
You're getting confused. A steak has zero sugar and salt. You have to add those things.
I was responding to people who say 'but meat just tastes sooo great!" and talking about people's addiction the Standard Western Diet of (i.e.junk food) - which is meat based - I've got good friends who literally cannot have a single meal with no meat in it - as I said before - I consider this addiction. (I've been reading The Pleasure Trap recently...it talks specifically about this...
http://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Trap-Mastering-Undermines-Happiness/dp/1570671508/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
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| It's no different from being addicted to 2 teaspoons of sugar in your coffee (my hand's up here)- it tastes great but the irony is it tastes better when you get used to no sugar ..the hard part is just readjusting tastebuds which takes about 1 month or so to get used to the difference..... |
Why did you talk about fat being bad for 100 words and then link fat with sugar. no low carb people think you should eat sugar.
You are thoroughly confused. |
It's very simple. I'm saying that quitting meat is analogous to quitting sugar (or ciggies for that matter). The pleasure we get from consuming particular food or products when taken away causes a withdrawal period - i've quit both meat and ciggies - and i'm trying to cut out sugar right now....and can see the similarities - not confused thanks - very clear headed...
Now I knew some of you low-carbsters would come out swinging especially if high meat /low carbs is your chosen diet.. I would just ask you this - Do you apply the same standards of skeptism to the low-carb "information" out there that you do to the current accepted nutritional advice?(i.e. saturated fat causes heart disease) and further more just what number of proper peer-reviewed studies could ever change your mind on this? Everything you say on this subject like the extremist low-carbers (see Taube, Mercola etc )seems utterly dogmatic and unwilling to concede anything.... compare that attitude with proper scientists like Colin Campbell of the China Study - and you realise on one side are people interested in truth - on the other are fanatics...
Here's a Low Carb nutritionist comparing some low-carbers to religious fundamentalists (and he's on your side!)
http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html  |
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Rothbard
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| drydell wrote: |
Now I knew some of you low-carbsters would come out swinging especially if high meat /low carbs is your chosen diet.. I would just ask you this - Do you apply the same standards of skeptism to the low-carb "information" out there that you do to the current accepted nutritional advice?(i.e. saturated fat causes heart disease) and further more just what number of proper peer-reviewed studies could ever change your mind on this? Everything you say on this subject like the extremist low-carbers (see Taube, Mercola etc )seems utterly dogmatic and unwilling to concede anything.... compare that attitude with proper scientists like Colin Campbell of the China Study - and you realise on one side are people interested in truth - on the other are fanatics...
Here's a Low Carb nutritionist comparing some low-carbers to religious fundamentalists (and he's on your side!)
http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html |
I'm extremely dogmatic. But, I am willing to be swayed. Quoting Ornish and the China study definitely will not do it. The China Study is one of the most derided and howled down studies I have come across in a long time. I haven't actually looked at it myself, but I'm happy to let others do the debunking for me.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/
This is why you should learn math. Then you know when people are lying to you. |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Epik_Teacher
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DorkothyParker wrote: |
| drydell wrote: |
| balzor wrote: |
| No meats, I would rather die |
well I feel like that more about sex quite frankly haha.. |
Sex substitutions trump meat substitutions in every way.
I'm going with meat. |
So................you're saying you can't beat your meat?!?  |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Low Carb Diet? drop the meat to live longer .... |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
People get fat because they overeat...not because they eat fat or carbs or protein. |
True - overeating is the main cause of weight gain, though eating fat laden and sugar laden foods do significantly speed up the weight gaining process(all other things being equal).
The main point I'd like to make though is that not being overweight is not the same as being healthy. Some of these diets do not provide people with all of the essential nutrients they need. Some people eat a lot of junk food but stay slim by working out. They may be slim, but they have a lot of crap coursing through their systems, and run the risks of a lot of health problems down the road. On the flip side, there are many overweight people who are actually malnourished, believe it or not, due to a poor diet.
Sector7G's key to good health:balanced diet from all the food groups, portion control, light daily exercise, and moderation in use of alcohol and tobacco. However, to keep from being boring, I also live by this motto:
Everything in moderation, including moderation! |
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DorkothyParker
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Epik_Teacher wrote: |
| DorkothyParker wrote: |
| drydell wrote: |
| balzor wrote: |
| No meats, I would rather die |
well I feel like that more about sex quite frankly haha.. |
Sex substitutions trump meat substitutions in every way.
I'm going with meat. |
So................you're saying you can't beat your meat?!? |
Yes... well actually I don't cook (seriously, I haven't so much as scrambled an egg in over two years) so I would say "nothing beats my husband's meat" as he is the chef of the household.
Good point, though. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| devdell wrote: |
It's very simple. I'm saying that quitting meat is analogous to quitting sugar (or ciggies for that matter). The pleasure we get from consuming particular food or products when taken away causes a withdrawal period - i've quit both meat and ciggies - and i'm trying to cut out sugar right now....and can see the similarities - not confused thanks - very clear headed...
Now I knew some of you low-carbsters would come out swinging especially if high meat /low carbs is your chosen diet.. I would just ask you this - Do you apply the same standards of skeptism to the low-carb "information" out there that you do to the current accepted nutritional advice? |
No, I reject the analogy. Sugar is much, much worse for you than pasture-fed, anti-biotic free meat. BTW, I was a vegetarian. I think its a healthier lifestyle than eating processed meats, provided you abstain from sugar. But do I think its the healthiest lifestyle? I'm skeptical.
Now, do you have a half hour? I hope so, because I have a blog post tearing into that study, but it takes a half hour.
| Quote: |
Bottom line: In this study, when you look closer at the data, differences in mortality appear to be unrelated to animal product consumption. Changes in cancer and cardiovascular risk ratios occur out of sync with changes in animal food intake.
In other words, it looks like what this study really measured was a Standard American Diet group (aka Animal Group) and a slightly-less Standard American Diet group (aka Vegetable Group). Both ate sucky diets, but the latter had slightly less suckage. You can bet the farm that neither was anything close to �low carb.� And if you have two farms, you can bet the other one that neither diet group was anything near plant-based, so I�m not sure the vegan crowd has much to gloat about here.
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
No, I reject the analogy. Sugar is much, much worse for you than pasture-fed, anti-biotic free meat. BTW, I was a vegetarian. I think its a healthier lifestyle than eating processed meats, provided you abstain from sugar. But do I think its the healthiest lifestyle? I'm skeptical.
Now, do you have a half hour? I hope so, because I have a blog post tearing into that study, but it takes a half hour. |
Good post, but aren't you being a bit presumptuous in assuming it takes a half hour to read? |
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harryh
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: south of Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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After my doctor told me I was very high risk for a heart attack, I read the following books and decided to completely change my diet and exercise routine, and I am currently enjoying a better life.
The Pritikin Weight loss Breakthrough (Robert Pritikin)
Eat to Live (Joel Fuhrman)
The China Study (T.Colin Campbell, and Thomas M. Campbell)
Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease (Caldwell B. Esselstyn)
The Spectrum (Dean Ornish)
I've read many of the references in these books too.
My total Cholesterol is 178 (HDL 79, LDL 99) from a previous 323.
My blood pressure is 124/76 from 153/86.
I still have the odd naughty food, but my health is much better. Angina seems non existant, I cycle, I do weights, I teach 50 classes a week but have more energy than I used to have, I suffer from fewer colds/coughs, and feel more optimistic day to day.
It's a tough diet for many, but there are some great recipes in these books, and so I've never actually got bored with the food. I eat as much as I like, and when I like, and my weight is safe enough (it's a lot lower than two years ago!).
A plant based diet is working for me, and I'll keep to it. |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| devdell wrote: |
It's very simple. I'm saying that quitting meat is analogous to quitting sugar (or ciggies for that matter). The pleasure we get from consuming particular food or products when taken away causes a withdrawal period - i've quit both meat and ciggies - and i'm trying to cut out sugar right now....and can see the similarities - not confused thanks - very clear headed...
Now I knew some of you low-carbsters would come out swinging especially if high meat /low carbs is your chosen diet.. I would just ask you this - Do you apply the same standards of skeptism to the low-carb "information" out there that you do to the current accepted nutritional advice? |
No, I reject the analogy. Sugar is much, much worse for you than pasture-fed, anti-biotic free meat. BTW, I was a vegetarian. I think its a healthier lifestyle than eating processed meats, provided you abstain from sugar. But do I think its the healthiest lifestyle? I'm skeptical.
Now, do you have a half hour? I hope so, because I have a blog post tearing into that study, but it takes a half hour.
| Quote: |
Bottom line: In this study, when you look closer at the data, differences in mortality appear to be unrelated to animal product consumption. Changes in cancer and cardiovascular risk ratios occur out of sync with changes in animal food intake.
In other words, it looks like what this study really measured was a Standard American Diet group (aka Animal Group) and a slightly-less Standard American Diet group (aka Vegetable Group). Both ate sucky diets, but the latter had slightly less suckage. You can bet the farm that neither was anything close to �low carb.� And if you have two farms, you can bet the other one that neither diet group was anything near plant-based, so I�m not sure the vegan crowd has much to gloat about here.
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| Quote: |
| because I have a blog post tearing into that study, |
er...so you are Denise Minger? haha well ...see my evaluation of her above...hilarious... you quote the person I mentioned has NO TRAINING in nutrition or epidemiology.. is blatantly 100% biased towards her OWN chosen dietry lifestyle... is on a mission to try to discredit Colin Campbells's work no matter what the truth is...deletes posts from trained epidemiologists on her blog because they point out problems with her work...
by the way this is a peer reviewed Harvard study....
I repeat...if you are even slightly serious about nutrition and science DO NOT link to Denise Minger... she is NOT a scientist...and is NOT interested in scientific facts - only affirming her own chosen lifestyle.....you chaps are all on daves (teaching in Korea presumably )because you have a bachelors degree (at least) - what the hell did you do with your time researching unbiased sources...can you not do better than that?..If my uni students linked to that they wouldn't be getting the grades they hoped for...I REPEAT ...if you refuse peer review you have something to hide...Denise Mingers analysis despite her mammoth "debunking" of the China study is worth precisely NOTHING until it has been accepted for peer review- and she will not allow that to happen because it will be scrutinised by proper scientists and not just her high-fiving cheering compardres from (mostly) the Weston Price foundation nut-cases who say that butter and meat and milk is all no problem at all
the fact is they are under assault from the majority of science that is proving that meat and dairy are now responsible for heart disease and a range of the most common cancers....... |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| harryh wrote: |
After my doctor told me I was very high risk for a heart attack, I read the following books and decided to completely change my diet and exercise routine, and I am currently enjoying a better life.
The Pritikin Weight loss Breakthrough (Robert Pritikin)
Eat to Live (Joel Fuhrman)
The China Study (T.Colin Campbell, and Thomas M. Campbell)
Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease (Caldwell B. Esselstyn)
The Spectrum (Dean Ornish)
I've read many of the references in these books too.
My total Cholesterol is 178 (HDL 79, LDL 99) from a previous 323.
My blood pressure is 124/76 from 153/86.
I still have the odd naughty food, but my health is much better. Angina seems non existant, I cycle, I do weights, I teach 50 classes a week but have more energy than I used to have, I suffer from fewer colds/coughs, and feel more optimistic day to day.
It's a tough diet for many, but there are some great recipes in these books, and so I've never actually got bored with the food. I eat as much as I like, and when I like, and my weight is safe enough (it's a lot lower than two years ago!).
A plant based diet is working for me, and I'll keep to it. |
Hi Harryh...
i'm reading exactly the stuff you did- I'm really glad the diet worked for you - and that's why i'm just furious at the internet disinformation by the low-carb people when they rubbish the diet you're doing -that's the reason for this post in the first place ...the diet's been proven to reverse heart disease in so many studies...good for you!
I'm trying to reduce the cooking oils/salad dressings myself but that's the hardest part of the diet....did you manage to go as strict as Esselstyn says? I can imagine it's really hard... |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| drydell wrote: |
| is blatantly 100% biased towards her OWN chosen dietry lifestyle... |
Says the OP . . .
Here's an article saying Atkins got it half-right.
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So what does meat have that plants don't? �Saturated fat and heme-iron are very high in red meat and processed meat,� said Hu, adding that colorectal cancer was the most common fatal cancer affecting the subjects of his study. Despite this observation, there is no known link between saturated fat, heme-iron and colorectal cancer and Hu added that it was very hard to single out one factor that could be responsible for the association.
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Sounds to me like we should remove processed meat from the diet, which is exactly what I'm advocating. It also sounds to me like you are taking that scientific study and over-reaching from its modest conclusions.
Increased cancer and heart-disease is precisely what I'd expect from consuming processed meats. |
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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Only the good die young. |
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