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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: 9 years, 2 wars, 100s of 1000s dead - and nothing learnt |
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Another good piece of Fisk:
Nine years, two wars, hundreds of thousands dead � and nothing learnt
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| Did 9/11 make us all mad? Our memorial to the innocents who died nine years ago has been a holocaust of fire and blood . . . |
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Did 9/11 make us all go mad? How fitting, in a weird, crazed way, that the apotheosis of that firestorm nine years ago should turn out to be a crackpot preacher threatening another firestorm with a Nazi-style book burning of the Koran. Or a would-be mosque two blocks from "ground zero" � as if 9/11 was an onslaught on Jesus-worshipping Christians, rather than on the atheist West.
But why should we be surprised? Just look at all the other crackpots spawned in the aftermath of those international crimes against humanity: the half-crazed Ahmadinejad, the smarmy post-nuclear Gaddafi, Blair with his crazed right eye and George W Bush with his black prisons and torture and lunatic "war on terror". And that wretched man who lived � or lives still � in an Afghan cave and the hundreds of al-Qa'idas whom he created, and the one-eyed mullah � not to mention all the lunatic cops and intelligence agencies and CIA thugs who failed us all � utterly � on 9/11 because they were too idle or too stupid to identify 19 men who were going to attack the United States. And remember one thing: even if the Rev Terry Jones sticks with his decision to back down, another of our cranks will be ready to take his place.
Indeed, on this grim ninth anniversary � and heaven spare us next year from the 10th � 9/11 appears to have produced not peace or justice or democracy or human rights, but monsters. They have prowled Iraq � both the Western and the local variety � and slaughtered 100,000 souls, or 500,000, or a million; and who cares? They have killed tens of thousands in Afghanistan; and who cares? And as the sickness has spread across the Middle East and then the globe, they � the air force pilots and the insurgents, the Marines and the suicide bombers, the al-Qa'idas of the Maghreb and of the Khalij and of the Caliphate of Iraq and the special forces and the close air support boys and the throat-cutters � have torn the heads off women and children and the old and the sick and the young and healthy, from the Indus to the Mediterranean, from Bali to the London Tube; quite a memorial to the 2,966 innocents who were killed nine years ago. All in their name, it seems, has been our holocaust of fire and blood, enshrined now in the crazed pastor of Gainesville.
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On God and War Profiteering
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This is the loss, of course. But who's made the profit? Well, the arms dealers, naturally, and Boeing and Lockheed Martin and all the missile lads and the drone manufacturers and F-16 spare parts outfits and the ruthless mercenaries who stalk the Muslim lands on our behalf now that we have created 100,000 more enemies for each of the 19 murderers of 9/11. Torturers have had a good time, honing their sadism in America's black prisons � it was appropriate that the US torture centre in Poland should be revealed on this ninth anniversary � as have the men (and women, I fear) who perfect the shackles and water-drowning techniques with which we now fight our wars. And � let us not forget � every religious raver in the world, be they of the Bin Laden variety, the bearded groupies in the Taliban, the suicide executioners, the hook-in the arm preachers, or our very own pastor of Gainesville.
And God? Where does he fit in? An archive of quotations suggests that just about every monster created in or after 9/11 is a follower of this quixotic redeemer. Bin Laden prays to God � "to turn America into a shadow of itself", as he told me in 1997 � and Bush prayed to God and Blair prayed � and prays � to God, and all the Muslim killers and an awful lot of Western soldiers and Dr (honorary) Pastor Terry Jones and his 30 (or it may be 50, since all statistics are hard to come by in the "war on terror") pray to God. And poor old God, of course, has had to listen to these prayers as he always sits through them during our mad wars. Recall the words attributed to him by a poet of another generation: "God this, God that, and God the other thing. 'Good God,' said God, 'I've got my work cut out'." And that was just the First World War...
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On the conflict in the Levant
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And of course, the one taboo subject of which we must not speak � Israel's relationship with America, and America's unconditional support for Israel's theft of land from Muslim Arabs � also lies at the heart of this terrible crisis in our lives. In yesterday's edition of The Independent, there was a photograph of Afghan demonstrators chanting "death to America". But in the background, these same demonstrators were carrying a black banner with a message in Dari written upon it in white paint. What it actually said was: "The bloodsucking Zionist government regime and the Western leaders who are indifferent [to suffering] and have no conscience are again celebrating the new year by spilling the red blood of the Palestinians."
The message is as extreme as it is vicious � but it proves, yet again, that the war in which we are engaged is also about Israel and "Palestine". We may prefer to ignore this in "the West" � where Muslims supposedly "hate us for what we are" or "hate our democracy" (see: Bush, Blair and a host of other mendacious politicians) � but this great conflict lies at the heart of the "war on terror". That is why the equally vicious Benjamin Netanyahu reacted to the atrocities of 9/11 by claiming that the event would be good for Israel. Israel would now be able to claim that it, too, was fighting the "war on terror", that Arafat � this was the now-comatose Ariel Sharon's claim � is "our Bin Laden". And thus Israelis had the gall to claim that Sderot, under its cascade of tin-pot missiles from Hamas, was "our ground zero".
It was not. Israel's battle with the Palestinians is a ghastly caricature of our "war on terror", in which we are supposed to support the last colonial project on earth � and accept its thousands of victims � because the twin towers and the Pentagon and United Flight 93 were attacked by 19 Arab murderers nine years ago. There is a supreme irony in the fact that one direct result of 9/11 has been the stream of Western policemen and spooks who have travelled to Israel to improve their "anti-terrorist expertise" with the help of Israeli officers who may � according to the United Nations � be war criminals. It was no surprise to find that the heroes who gunned down poor old Jean Charles de Menezes on the London Tube in 2005 had been receiving "anti-terrorist" advice from the Israelis.
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On our cruel despicable hypocrisy
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And yes, I know the arguments. We cannot compare the actions of evil terrorists with the courage of our young men and women, defending our lives � and sacrificing theirs � on the front lines of the 'war on terror". There can be no "equivalence". "They" kill innocents because "they" are evil. "We" kill innocents by mistake. But we know we are going to kill innocents � we willingly accept that we are going to kill innocents, that our actions are going to create mass graves of families, of the poor and the weak and the dispossessed.
This is why we created the obscene definition of "collateral damage". For if "collateral" means that these victims are innocent, then "collateral" also means that we are innocent of killing them. It was not our wish to kill them � even if we knew it was inevitable that we would. "Collateral" is our exoneration. This one word is the difference between "them" and "us", between our God-given right to kill and Bin Laden's God-given right to murder. The victims, hidden away as "collateral" corpses, don't count any more because they were slaughtered by us. Maybe it wasn't so painful. Maybe death by drone is a more gentle departure from this earth, evisceration by an AGM-114C Boeing-Lockheed air-to-ground missile less painful, than death by shards from a roadside bomb or a cruel suicider with an explosive belt.
That's why we know how many died on 9/11 � 2,966, although the figure may be higher � and why we don't "do body counts" on those whom we kill. Because they � "our" victims � must have no identities, no innocence, no personality, no cause or belief or feelings; and because we have killed far, far more human beings than Bin Laden and the Taliban and al-Qa'ida.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to bother reading your article. I'm just going to ponder on the logic of your question... which goes:
Critical of Israel = unreputable
Ah. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ...possess strong anti-Israel views.. |
In what bizarre universe is that a standard for legitimacy? |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Robert Fisk , eh? 
I'd rather trust the credibility of "Pravda", c. 1975. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| ...possess strong anti-Israel views.. |
In what bizarre universe is that a standard for legitimacy? |
That is exactly what I am asking Big Bird...who choose to dodge the question apparently. Maybe if you ask her she'll tell you. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...possess strong anti-Israel views.. |
In what bizarre universe is that a standard for legitimacy? |
That is exactly what I am asking Big Bird...who choose to dodge the question apparently. Maybe if you ask her she'll tell you. |
To help steer you through your obvious confusion....
Mises is questioning your curious little criteria for 'reputable.'
In TUM's little world to be 'reputable' one must never question the position or actions of successive Israeli governments. To voice criticism of Israel's occupation is to render oneself 'disreputable.' Having once voiced criticism of Israel's illegal occupation and brutal treatment of Palestinians, one can never be considered 'honest' or 'trustworthy' ever again.
In other words, those who do not share TUM's desperate knee-jerk apologism for dispossession of the Palestinians cannot be trusted. By him. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...possess strong anti-Israel views.. |
In what bizarre universe is that a standard for legitimacy? |
That is exactly what I am asking Big Bird...who choose to dodge the question apparently. Maybe if you ask her she'll tell you. |
To help steer you through your obvious confusion....
Mises is questioning your curious little criteria for 'reputable.'
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I am aware of what Mr. mises (it's mises and not Mises) was trying to say. I was merely poking playful fun at the fact that HE was the one who got confused. He quoted my part about strong anti-Israel views and then asked how is that a standard for legitimacy.
Which was my question too. How are R.F's strong anti-Israeli views a standard for legitimacy? Isn't a journalist at least supposed to try to be impartial? Biased opinion is never legit. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Which was my question too. How are R.F's strong anti-Israeli views a standard for legitimacy? |
Obviously, in TUM-world, his strong anti-occupation-of-the-territories views render him illegitimate. But we've already covered this.
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| Isn't a journalist at least supposed to try to be impartial? |
Are they? Is it really very honest to pretend you are impartial when you are not? He's spent decades living in the Middle East and seen first hand the carnage wrought by Israeli warring. It's refreshing that he is so outspoken about it.
You (and your neo-con websites) also ignore that he has been highly critical of Arab transgressors too.
On the other hand, if a journalist were consistently highly critical of Arab transgressions, yet rarely complained of Israeli or Western wrongdoing - you would consider him a fine upstanding citizen and hang on his every word.
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| Biased opinion is never legit. |
Then let's discount all opinion then. I've never met any human devoid of bias. Except your good self of course. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I am aware of what Mr. mises (it's mises and not Mises) was trying to say. |
But BB started the sentence with "Mises". Should the use of the capital be foregone because he doesn't use it in his chosen username?
Any thoughts, mises? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I am aware of what Mr. mises (it's mises and not Mises) was trying to say. |
But BB started the sentence with "Mises". Should the use of the capital be foregone because he doesn't use it in his chosen username?
Any thoughts, mises? |
that's right. to me, beginning a sentence without a capital seems a capital offence. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I am aware of what Mr. mises (it's mises and not Mises) was trying to say. |
But BB started the sentence with "Mises". Should the use of the capital be foregone because he doesn't use it in his chosen username?
Any thoughts, mises? |
that's right. to me, beginning a sentence without a capital seems a capital offence. |
internet high-five. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Its too early to say that nothing was learned, hopefully something was. Hopefully the lessons will continue to influence this president and our future ones. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| I liked the calm unbiased tone . throatcuters tearing the heads off children. No information, no facts just opinion and inflamatory rhetoric. It really doesnt explain what the problems or address any solutions. Basically just a rant. Not a good piece of writing. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I am aware of what Mr. mises (it's mises and not Mises) was trying to say. |
But BB started the sentence with "Mises". Should the use of the capital be foregone because he doesn't use it in his chosen username?
Any thoughts, mises? |
that's right. to me, beginning a sentence without a capital seems a capital offence. |
I should have capitalized it when I picked it.
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| They have prowled Iraq � both the Western and the local variety � and slaughtered 100,000 souls, or 500,000, or a million; and who cares? They have killed tens of thousands in Afghanistan; and who cares? |
I think the numbers matter. I believe an Oxford study estimated the total dead around 1,000,000. Plus the refugees.
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| And of course, the one taboo subject of which we must not speak � Israel's relationship with America, and America's unconditional support for Israel's theft of land from Muslim Arabs � also lies at the heart of this terrible crisis in our lives. |
This must be repeated over and over again. Mo' Atta wrote his will after one of the Israeli adventures in Lebanon. His motivation was entirely related to Israel.
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| ...address any solutions |
I don't see any solutions that are possible. Israel is moving hard right. Netanyahu might be a calm, sane dream in a decade or so. There is extreme self deception at work here.. Supporters of Israel look to some mysterious anti-Jew attitudes that cause hostility to that state. The truth is that the hate comes from Israeli behaviour, mostly. As long as the behaviour continues the situation will get worse and worse. As long as anti-Semitism is seen as something inherent the real causes of Arab/Persian/etc hostility will continue on. You just can't treat people like that. I saw a youtube video of white phosphorus over a UN school. What do they think will be the outcome of such acts? Love? Respect?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfcHVBIyJyA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhG0cCGEpxg
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza
You can't do that. You can't behave like that. Civilians can not be targeted like that. What do they think will be the emotional reaction of the targeted population? They are raining fire down on a captive population.
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| Its too early to say that nothing was learned, hopefully something was. Hopefully the lessons will continue to influence this president and our future ones. |
I agree. I am very happy that Obama has refused the demands to attack Iran thus far. It is likely that he and members of the military leadership understand how insane and destructive these wars have been. I really hope that Obama doesn't bend. The next Republican surely will. It is very hard to imagine a smooth outcome to all this. |
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