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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship. |
Definitely too simplistic. There's something to it, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel. And that's accepting Muslim extremist claims at face value.
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I think you've misread Fisk's article. He doesn't claim that the Israel/Palestine conflict is to blame for everything. He's pointing out that it is a very important factor, which is all too often ignored. At our cost. |
I haven't responded to Fisk's article yet. I'm responding to the other comments in this thread. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Polls on the Afghan war have anywhere fromr 50% and more of Americans in favor of a pullout. Unfortunately Obama and most Dems won't even consider the idea because it would be "political suicide".  |
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HijackedTw1light
Joined: 24 May 2010
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
There's something to damage stemming from the US-Israeli relationship, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel and its subsequent behavior, and possibly also the US's invasion of Iraq. |
No doubt.
When the barbarians are at the gate, demanding you to give up one of your friends, what do you do? In the movies you affirm what a good friend he is, you say no to the barbarians, and you fight it out. But in real life? You start remembering the time he was flirting with your girl, you remember how he always tries to borrow money from you, and you start to think that maybe he is not such a good friend. And then if you decide to give him up to the barbarians, you'll start actually condemning and demonizing the poor bastard. Why? To ease your conscience. It's human nature. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
[.
Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.
I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations. |
Except that Israel could do the same to America. Hardly a convincing reason for disengagement. |
ROFL. Oh, no! Not an embargo on America by the mighty Israel! |
Perhaps you would like to link me to the dictionary you and Big Bird are apparently reading from and show me how "castigated for its many human rights abuses" equates to an "embargo"
Or you could just read the post again and pay attention to the words I bolded (for easy reading comprehension) this time. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Good point about having our noses rubbed in it, Big bird. I can agree with that somewhat.
What I would like to see is Russia's nose rubbed in it for what they did in Afghanistan in the 80's and they continue to do internally in the 90's. China's nose rubbed in it , and most definitely India and Pakistan should have a rolled up newspaper taken to them. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Good point about having our noses rubbed in it, Big bird. I can agree with that somewhat.
What I would like to see is Russia's nose rubbed in it for what they did in Afghanistan in the 80's and they continue to do internally in the 90's. China's nose rubbed in it , and most definitely India and Pakistan should have a rolled up newspaper taken to them. |
Well this is the kind of argument my 5 year old engages in when he is asked to reflect on some misdemeanor or another.
It's not fair that he is being reprimanded for smacking some kid round the ears when Jason has done that to XYZ and he didn't get in trouble (because he was sly enough not to be caught). Instead of feeling remorse for hitting some poor little pintsize playmate, and reflecting on his own attitude and the error of his ways, he instead feels great indignation that HE is being told off, while Jason has got off scot free.
It's up to Russia and China to reflect on their own misdemeanors, and us to reflect on ours. They are not mature democracies - still very backward in many ways - and unfortunately they are very flawed. But do we say "Hey! If they can go around torturing and killing why can't we!?" We can only be responsible for our own actions, and so it is our own behaviour and attitudes we should be examining - not forever whining "Waaaah! What are you getting at me for! What about the other guy!? He's naughty too....it's not fair.....boo hoo..." China and Russia are not standards I think we should hold ourselves to. Do you?
As for berating Russia for deeds done in Afghanistan in the 80s and 90s - it's a bit hypocritical to ignore America's culpability in that regard. I happen to think that the US and her allies (Britain, Pakistan and Saudi) caused more trouble for Afghanistan than even Russia did. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Not five years old and not discussing hitting a child. But then I thought we were discussing wars and violence in the middle east.
Okay got it now: U.S.A. bad U.S. a. baddddd!
So slaughter is okay from less "mature forms" of government. Interesting !
Sorry for my deviation. I have realized my error. the issue is the U.s. support for Israel, it always is and the "Truth" is if the U.s. abandoned israel the region would have zero conflict or violence in fact it would be a paradise. Satisfied. |
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Wai Mian
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: WE DIDNT
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
As for berating Russia for deeds done in Afghanistan in the 80s and 90s - it's a bit hypocritical to ignore America's culpability in that regard. I happen to think that the US and her allies (Britain, Pakistan and Saudi) caused more trouble for Afghanistan than even Russia did. |
It's not either/or. One need not mention every foreign policy failing of the US whenever one makes a critique of another country. When did rollo indicate he found the US blameless? And how does the fact that Russia and China haven't been able to get their act together somehow makes their atrocious human rights records less offensive? China has been a nation state since 1644, Russia around the same time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
[q
It's up to Russia and China to reflect on their own misdemeanors, and us to reflect on ours. |
By that logic we should have not interfered with Serbia's slaughter of Albanians in the Kosovo war.
And by that logic we should let Israel reflect on their own misdemeanors and we on ours...as I pointed out above. |
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sluggo832004
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mankind....... |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Wai Mian wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
As for berating Russia for deeds done in Afghanistan in the 80s and 90s - it's a bit hypocritical to ignore America's culpability in that regard. I happen to think that the US and her allies (Britain, Pakistan and Saudi) caused more trouble for Afghanistan than even Russia did. |
It's not either/or. One need not mention every foreign policy failing of the US whenever one makes a critique of another country. When did rollo indicate he found the US blameless? And how does the fact that Russia and China haven't been able to get their act together somehow makes their atrocious human rights records less offensive? China has been a nation state since 1644, Russia around the same time. |
You and rollo have missed the point. Jason smacking other kids around the head is not any less offensive than my 5 year old smacking other kids around the head. However, the fact that Jason smacks other kids around the head does not mitigate my son's smacking of heads. My son needs to consider his own actions, and be responsible for his own actions. Likewise, Jason needs to be responsible for his.
At no point did I say that somehow China's or Russia's abuses were somehow less bad. I know a lot of posters here struggle with logic, and extrapolate the most ridiculous conclusions. So I will try to be patient with you.
What the Chinese have done to the Tibetans is disgraceful. But we are not Chinese, we are Westerners - discussing what we do. We can only change what WE do (or support our governments to do). We cannot change what the Chinese do. That doesn't mean that what the Chinese do in Tibet is OK, or more forgiveable. I'm really failing to grasp your logic. Probably because you haven't applied any logic whatsoever. It's up to the Chinese to reflect on what they do. They are backwards in this respect (not individually, but as a society) and do not. That doesn't excuse their crimes. But the fact that the Chinese don't (as a nation) reflect on their own wrongdoing, doesn't mean it is fine for us to behave like them. Do you really want the West to behave like the Chinese? And wouldn't it be fantastic if the Chinese, as a nation, began to question these things? Wouldn't we have more respect for them? Wouldn't we admire them more for it? The Chinese are always wanking on about the US and the UK and the West. No self criticism. It makes them look really f***ing stupid, frankly. And you want to EMULATE that? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
[q
It's up to Russia and China to reflect on their own misdemeanors, and us to reflect on ours. |
By that logic we should have not interfered with Serbia's slaughter of Albanians in the Kosovo war.
And by that logic we should let Israel reflect on their own misdemeanors and we on ours...as I pointed out above. |
TUM, you are a fine one to talk about logic. I'll leave it at that.... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
[q
It's up to Russia and China to reflect on their own misdemeanors, and us to reflect on ours. |
By that logic we should have not interfered with Serbia's slaughter of Albanians in the Kosovo war.
And by that logic we should let Israel reflect on their own misdemeanors and we on ours...as I pointed out above. |
TUM, you are a fine one to talk about logic. I'll leave it at that.... |
Yes, yes I am thank you very much. It's why I've been attempting to educate certain posters including on this very thread in logic.
But now I am using YOUR logic.
You state that "We can only change what WE do (or support our governments to do). We cannot change what the Chinese do."
Fair enough.
All I am asking is why the same logic does not apply to Israel. After all I never see you harping on about the Chinese human right abuses the way you do about Israel's. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
[q
It's up to Russia and China to reflect on their own misdemeanors, and us to reflect on ours. |
By that logic we should have not interfered with Serbia's slaughter of Albanians in the Kosovo war.
And by that logic we should let Israel reflect on their own misdemeanors and we on ours...as I pointed out above. |
TUM, you are a fine one to talk about logic. I'll leave it at that.... |
Yes, yes I am thank you very much. It's why I've been attempting to educate certain posters including on this very thread in logic.
But now I am using YOUR logic.
You state that "We can only change what WE do (or support our governments to do). We cannot change what the Chinese do."
Fair enough.
All I am asking is why the same logic does not apply to Israel. After all I never see you harping on about the Chinese human right abuses the way you do about Israel's. |
Simple. We can't really do much to change China's occupation of Tibet. On the other hand, Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is FUNDED BY THE US. All those bombs and planes that Israel periodically uses against Palestinians and Lebanese are bought and paid for by US TAXPAYERS. Do you see the difference?
Those shiny new settlements on the hill tops are bankrolled by US taxpayers. Israel just could not afford to do what it does if it didn't have billions of financial support each year. Without Western support, Israel could not continue its illegal settlements and subjugation of Palestinians. Without our support, they'd have been forced to negotiate peacefully, and find a workable solution with their neighbours. However, being the favourite child of the US, they continue to be spoilt and cossetted, and they see no reason not to continue down their path of expansion. After all, no-one is standing in their way. They have US backing. Obama doesn't dare rock the boat too much. If more US citizens began to question what goes on in the Levant, Obama would have a freer hand to attempt a real peace agreement. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:18 am Post subject: |
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I believe that some on here think I am trying to mitigate the brutal insipid invasion of Iraq by pointing out the sins of others. I am also not trying to justify the U.S funding of Israli abuses.
Just pointing out that many are guilty. If the U.s. abandoned Israel tommorow I dont think the situation would improve that much. Iran. Eygpt, Jordan and others would still have axes to grind and feuds to be settled using the Palestinians as pawns. Also Israel would either find weapons from another source or do something drastic.
WAsnt really talking about Tibet, was referring to the Chinese battles with mulims in Western China.
WE should do better!! About that you are correct Big Bird. Mankind indeed! |
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