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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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 Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Always funny to see an old post of mine rise from the dead 8 months after its creation. Even funnier is the fact that after leaving Korea and returning to start a job at a major company, this feeling is stronger now than it was then.
| ya-ta boy wrote: |
I think you answered your own question (in your second post): I've always had an indescribable reverence for men of the soil.
You approached the Indians with a romanticized view. You even mentioned that you didn't mind if they hacked people up with a machete or repeatedly stole things 'at machete point'.
The trouble in Korea is that you didn't come here with a romanticized view, so don't make any mental excuses for bad behavior |
Nice little theory but dead wrong. My "romanticization" of amerindians fell by the wayside when I was 13 years old after visiting a reservation with a half native friend of mine. Having studied Eastern Philosophy in university and knowing that buddhism was the prevalant religion here in Korea, I came here with high expectations (I'm too old and too experienced to feel "romantic" about anything anymore).
A quick story -- Two months ago I went on a business trip to Europe with the big wigs of my company. I spent five full days with these guys - all of them fully fluent and all of them with upwards of 8 years of living overseas under their belts. After only two days I was ready to put a bullet in my fricken head.
We travelled through Germany and Belgium & had business luncheons with big named distributors from each. Anyone thats in the business world knows that its a rule of thumb to follow the lead of your client especially when you are a guest in their home country. Not only are you required to eat their cuisine but its strongly urged that you order the exact same dish as them (shows flexibily and appreciation). When the trip concluded, how many authentic european meals would you guess we had? ONE! Every damn thing we ate had to be Korean. At one point we were even invited to a famous German restaurant in Frankfurt where reservations were made a few days prior. When our German business associates told us the plans, my Korean counterparts responded with "No, no, no...we will eat korean food. Famous Korean restaurant very close by." We then had to endure a one hour, uncomfortable, socially awkward car ride just to get to some dive of a korean restaurant for samgyapsol which the germans choked down with forced smiles.
When we came back to germany I had the opportunity to spend some time with an outsourcing company to discuss the fine points of a project in the works. My contact was a 50 year old father of three German man with absolutely horrible english (pretty much the antithesis of me). I ended up having a blast with the guy! Even though language was a huge issue, I could feel the guys knowledge and worldliness...We accomplished more in 4 hours than I did in a week with a fully fluent korean. Seeing the korean men coming through the door at the end of the day to pick me up was like a concrete slap hitting me square in the top of the head. It was like a death march heading back to the company car knowing that i'd have to endure another long, awkward car ride with people I have zero respect for.
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| I make a big effort not to write people off before I meet them, but I have found in my three years here that I have never spoken to a Korean male that I wanted to see again and form a friendship with |
Sounds like a page directly out of my book |
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shaun k
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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the korean traditions have not prepared them properly for international business. i think in order to find a korean man's soul, you have to meet him on his terms, which is pretty difficult due to the isolation here, and then not compare it to a european tradition.
i spent the weekend working on my soon-to-be father-in-law's farm with a passel of family members from ages 4 to 75, and i have to say, it has taken me almost a year of these little weekend visits to be comfortable there, but it is on the old farm where korea shines. i hadnt really appreciated this place until i had done quick dixie cups of soju between spreading tractor fulls of manure onto the rice field. the little ones were playing, the women were cleaning and making kimchee, and the men were busting ass in the fields, and it was beautiful. and i know that this lifestyle is hard and i know these people are poor, and im not even saying korea should stay that way -- i just mean that korea is like an immature teenager when it comes to the business world, and its fine to call them on their weakness (they must improve), but this thread began talking about looking for the wisdom in a culture, and i have seen it, and youre probably not going to find it at an LG meeting. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:31 am Post subject: |
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>>Nice little theory but dead wrong. My "romanticization" of amerindians fell by the wayside when I was 13 years old after visiting a reservation with a half native friend of mine<<
That is entirely possible. It has been known to happen from time to time.
However, I am very curious why you are willing to overlook armed robbery and mutilation with machetes? This is the sticking point with me. It just seems like a case of cognitive dissonance. That is just my impression.
I'm surprised at the posters who say they have never found an interesting Korean guy to talk to. I have far more trouble finding an interesting Korean woman to talk to. Most seem like feather-brained beauty queen wannabes. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: |
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I find my class of 40-50 year-old government officials to be really charming and fun. They are playful and self-effacing, and treat me with enormous respect. They are also dilligent and hard working.
I do know that there are a few of them that I would avoid at soju time, but that is not going to be an issue. I would say that about a similar group of guys in the U.S., I could say the same about the drinking, but not about the self-effacement and respect, let alone dilligence and hard work. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:55 am Post subject: |
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I could say the same about the drinking, but not about the self-effacement and respect, let alone dilligence and hard work.
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Yeah right, and the worlds strongest nation was build by a bunch of lazy men. 
Your jaundiced view of the world is truly sickening. |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-Ta Boy wrote: |
That is entirely possible. It has been known to happen from time to time.
However, I am very curious why you are willing to overlook armed robbery and mutilation with machetes? This is the sticking point with me. It just seems like a case of cognitive dissonance. That is just my impression |
I hear ya...All I can say is that the passion that manifested intself in a machette fight came from the same place that inspired random instances of soulful dancing and intoxicating fits of laughter that would last 20 minutes. Maybe it sounds romanticized, but the truth is that when I left S.America, everyone had tears in their eyes embracing people from the village who couldn't even communicate with us 99% of the time. These people had HEART and a passion for life. They knew how to have fun and let go which sometimes did resulted in violence but was, in essence, an extention of their naturalistic attitude about life; no pre-determined behavioral patterns or dull hierarchical social structure, just real people running the emotional gamut in a place where they have absolutely nothing...I adored it.
Here in Korea, if I'm invited to go out with some adjoshi's it seems expected that I entertain them. If I don't its pretty damn likely that the conversation will quickly degenerate into two Kim's talking business or lamenting over their uncle who died 15 years ago...GAY. Whenever i've been in another country and had some local take the reins and shown me the sights, we both know that he/she is calling the shots and knows the best places to go. Here, there's almost this sense of displacement like Koreans are uncomfortable even on their home turf and get rattled if they have to make the decisions.
Whether i'm in S.America, England, Italy,etc. if my host tells me that we're going to have a good time, I'm pretty confident that it will be just that. Here in Korea, if some adjoshi says the same thing to me, its pretty much guaranteed that he means soju at a table amongst a thousand koreans having a forced conversation...not my idea of fun.
At my company, the only people that I would even consider hanging out with outside work would be the women. This is in no way a sexual thing either. I've come to realize that Korean men fight and claw to hang onto the antiquated, confucian social structure simply because they want to reap the benefits after being pushed aroung by people older than them for so long - they want their moment in the sun to slap around those underneath them like their superiors did to them. Most Korean women i've met, however, seem to be willing to discard this cultural attitude at the drop of a hat. It amazes me how eager they all are to talk sh*t about Korean men the second they have me alone saying things that parallel what i'm saying here ("korean men soo boring....too closed minded....too nervous").
Yes Koreans are very generous and caring but those qualities does not a friendship make. When I am kicking back in my free time, the last thing I want is awkwardness. I want to hang out with relaxed, fun people who can enjoy the moment and whom i can share some laughs & stories with. Truthfully, i've never met a korean man i can do this with. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
| Quote: |
I could say the same about the drinking, but not about the self-effacement and respect, let alone dilligence and hard work.
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Yeah right, and the worlds strongest nation was build by a bunch of lazy men.
Your jaundiced view of the world is truly sickening.
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Thats pretty harsh, and coming from you, it stings.
Ask people here who have taught university here and in the U.S. which are the better students to teach. Yes, they are not the best prepared (the basic education here sucks) but they are definitely more respectful, and in my classroom they work harder.
It surprises me that this is your view of how I see the world. I am fairly generous towards everyone, but a bit hard on my home country. I believe what I believe about it, but that doesn't mean that I don't like individuals there. I don't like the government, and, to put it generously, the voters really disappoint me.
Was the U.S. built by strong, hard working, diligent men? To some degree, but to a large degree it was built by African slaves (for 300 years) and Chinese labor. Look at U.S. history. Workers in the U.S. are largely not lazy, many people are though- too many looking for the fast buck that someone like Donald Trump is able to turn.
I am not sure why you have suddenly attacked me. Please P.M. and let me know and maybe we can talk about it. |
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