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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Thats the thing though, none of what was released, at least from what I've seen, is at all revelatory. Anyone with a sense of history, context, and current events could, and probably did, figure out most of it for themselves.
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The people who should be getting riled up by this over don't have a sense of history, context, or current events.
| Leon wrote: |
| As for everyone else it was just a blip on the evening news. |
That's a defect in the populace. One can either accept that the American people don't give a damn, or one can try to do something to make them care, even if it might not work. Pessimistic forfeiture or optimistic striving, that's what one is left choosing between.
| Leon wrote: |
| The potential for bad from this is much higher than good. |
The net negative results of this will be trivial by any meaningful standard. Yes, some individual lives may be lost, and that saddens me, but they're the lives of people who are willingly engaged in or assisting with an unethical military program. On the other hand, if this by chance genuinely roused the American people to action, the lives of countless innocents stand to be preserved. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to blame Mr. Assange for looking at that and making his choice as he did. When you join the military or cooperate with the military, you're taking your life into your own hands. When you just want to farm your damn crops without being shot at by zealous American hicks in your own country, the situation is entirely different.
| Leon wrote: |
| Who cares about wiki leaks intentions, it the results that matter. This war has a deadline , maybe it would be different if it didn't. |
Any acceptance of this war having a "deadline" is, as much as I dislike the word, naive. Maybe at some arbitrary date they'll pull some arbitrary number of troops out and declare the rest "non-combat troops" and say things are over, and from there on do their best to keep Afghanistan out of the news. That doesn't mean much to the civilians dying due to our meddling, and it doesn't mean much with regards to the individuals who are pushed into radicalization because of a family member of five who was gunned down for no real reason at all.
You're right Leon, results are what matter. The results of our meddling in this region have been overwhelmingly negative. America is no more secure, people are radicalized by military abuses, economic vitality has been leeched out of our country, and civilians have needlessly died. From that perspective, I can't help but support anyone trying to get people to stop shrugging off that reality. Even if you consider the chances of his success low, the potential payoff is great, and what's being "risked" is nothing more than what our own nation is constantly putting at risk in the first place: the lives of our military personnel.
I think my position is clear, and I don't think we'll come to an agreement. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Wikileaks does not constitute an attack on all of free speech.
And yes if you release tactical documents you very well may be responsible (if not yet, eventually) for someone's death. |
Much more likely you will be responsible for saving lives, as the government is on record orchestrating many false flag events; lying to take the country to war, funding terrorists, and murdering innocent civilians deliberately. Whistleblowing = patriotism. |
Saving lives how exactly? Who actually read this? I guarantee that many more foreign governments and extremists actually read through all of it than Americans did. It has accomplished nothing positive. |
I'm not worried about foreign governments or so-called "terrorists" funded by the CIA. I'm worried about our own criminal government that illegally invades other countries, kills and tortures innocent people, spies on Americans, and orchestrates countless false flags at home and abroad, on record. The more transparency the better, period. And lots of Americans read wikileaks (especially journalists in the alternative media). Your contention that only terrorists read it is just plain false. Even claiming that more foreigners read it than Americans is totally unfounded speculation at best. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Wikileaks does not constitute an attack on all of free speech.
And yes if you release tactical documents you very well may be responsible (if not yet, eventually) for someone's death. |
Much more likely you will be responsible for saving lives, as the government is on record orchestrating many false flag events; lying to take the country to war, funding terrorists, and murdering innocent civilians deliberately. Whistleblowing = patriotism. |
Saving lives how exactly? Who actually read this? I guarantee that many more foreign governments and extremists actually read through all of it than Americans did. It has accomplished nothing positive. |
I'm not worried about foreign governments or so-called "terrorists" funded by the CIA. I'm worried about our own criminal government that illegally invades other countries, kills and tortures innocent people, spies on Americans, and orchestrates countless false flags at home and abroad, on record. The more transparency the better, period. And lots of Americans read wikileaks (especially journalists in the alternative media). Your contention that only terrorists read it is just plain false. Even claiming that more foreigners read it than Americans is totally unfounded speculation at best. |
Of course not only terrorists read it, you are forgetting about foreign governments as well. Mainstream America doesn't read it, and those are the votes that count. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Thats the thing though, none of what was released, at least from what I've seen, is at all revelatory. Anyone with a sense of history, context, and current events could, and probably did, figure out most of it for themselves.
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The people who should be getting riled up by this over don't have a sense of history, context, or current events. |
Exactly, and why bother preaching to the converted.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| As for everyone else it was just a blip on the evening news. |
That's a defect in the populace. One can either accept that the American people don't give a damn, or one can try to do something to make them care, even if it might not work. Pessimistic forfeiture or optimistic striving, that's what one is left choosing between. |
Pictures and videos might work, but long documents never stood a chance. It's not a strict choice between pessimism and optimism its having a realistic understanding of your audience and, in a sense, marketing.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The potential for bad from this is much higher than good. |
The net negative results of this will be trivial by any meaningful standard. Yes, some individual lives may be lost, and that saddens me, but they're the lives of people who are willingly engaged in or assisting with an unethical military program. On the other hand, if this by chance genuinely roused the American people to action, the lives of countless innocents stand to be preserved. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to blame Mr. Assange for looking at that and making his choice as he did. When you join the military or cooperate with the military, you're taking your life into your own hands. When you just want to farm your damn crops without being shot at by zealous American hicks in your own country, the situation is entirely different. |
Trivial? If one person dies from this than its not trivial. He included peoples names, that is unethical. He could have printed a redacted version of the documents and I would be on his side. As it is he made a hit list. The Taliban's M.O. is killing informants. Say what you will about the United States involvement, but everyone is better off if the Taliban doesn't return to power. If people are scared to assist the Americans, which you can think of as a lesser of two evils if you must, then that is not good.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Who cares about wiki leaks intentions, it the results that matter. This war has a deadline , maybe it would be different if it didn't. |
Any acceptance of this war having a "deadline" is, as much as I dislike the word, naive. Maybe at some arbitrary date they'll pull some arbitrary number of troops out and declare the rest "non-combat troops" and say things are over, and from there on do their best to keep Afghanistan out of the news. That doesn't mean much to the civilians dying due to our meddling, and it doesn't mean much with regards to the individuals who are pushed into radicalization because of a family member of five who was gunned down for no real reason at all.
You're right Leon, results are what matter. The results of our meddling in this region have been overwhelmingly negative. America is no more secure, people are radicalized by military abuses, economic vitality has been leeched out of our country, and civilians have needlessly died. From that perspective, I can't help but support anyone trying to get people to stop shrugging off that reality. Even if you consider the chances of his success low, the potential payoff is great, and what's being "risked" is nothing more than what our own nation is constantly putting at risk in the first place: the lives of our military personnel.
I think my position is clear, and I don't think we'll come to an agreement. |
Thats fine, I respect your opinion more than most of the posters here, even if I often disagree. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Wikileaks does not constitute an attack on all of free speech.
And yes if you release tactical documents you very well may be responsible (if not yet, eventually) for someone's death. |
Much more likely you will be responsible for saving lives, as the government is on record orchestrating many false flag events; lying to take the country to war, funding terrorists, and murdering innocent civilians deliberately. Whistleblowing = patriotism. |
Saving lives how exactly? Who actually read this? I guarantee that many more foreign governments and extremists actually read through all of it than Americans did. It has accomplished nothing positive. |
I'm not worried about foreign governments or so-called "terrorists" funded by the CIA. I'm worried about our own criminal government that illegally invades other countries, kills and tortures innocent people, spies on Americans, and orchestrates countless false flags at home and abroad, on record. The more transparency the better, period. And lots of Americans read wikileaks (especially journalists in the alternative media). Your contention that only terrorists read it is just plain false. Even claiming that more foreigners read it than Americans is totally unfounded speculation at best. |
Of course not only terrorists read it, you are forgetting about foreign governments as well. Mainstream America doesn't read it, and those are the votes that count. |
Foreign governments aren't going to be reading anything they don't already know, unless perhaps it's some third world leader reading about something illegal the CIA is planning to do (like stage a coup). Countries that could in any way possibly threaten the US militarily, like Russia or China, have their own very well funded intelligence agencies, and are not in the dark about anything. Our own government is actually run by the same globalists and corporate lobbyists who control most other countries in the world anyway. In fact, it's hardly even "our" government at all - it's just a bunch of former Goldman Sachs employees (no real loyalty to the US at all) and globalists who have hijacked our country and are using it to fund their empire (using our military to enforce it). The biggest risk to our national security is the crooks running our own government.
As for mainstream America, it doesn't matter if your average Joe actually clicks directly onto the wikileaks page and reads through the primary sources themselves. The point is that the material may be picked up by the media and stated for the record. Especially the alternative media, which is growing by leaps and bounds, fast displacing the dinosaur corporate media. Whistle blowers are very important and need a forum to post their material. Disinformation will always be an issue (whether deliberate or not), but it should absolutely be legal for material to be posted anonymously. |
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