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El Exigente
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
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 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| The bigger threat to stability in the US will be Mexican immigrants who have a greater allegiance to Mexico than their adoptive home. |
As I recall, it was the US who "adopted" all of Mexico from Texas to California. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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US President Ulysses S. Grant said that the Mexican War was "one of the most unjust ever waged on a weaker country by a stronger. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory."
So a lot of immigrants are entering territory taken from their country by force. Might does not make right. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I see the point, but in the present day I'm not so sure Juan Sanchez from Mexico City has a strong claim to "from Texas to California".
Could we be dealing with a proposed right of return? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War
| Wikipedia wrote: |
| In 1829, as a result of the large influx of American immigrants, the Americans outnumbered Mexicans in the Texas territory. The Mexican government decided to bring back the property tax, increase tariffs on US shipped goods, and prohibit slavery. The settlers rejected the demands, which led to Mexico closing Texas to additional immigration. However, Americans continued to flow into the Texas territory. |
You know, I wasn't aware that Mexico once had an "open border" immigration policy. Though I do know that those who fail to learn from history... something or other. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
I see the point, but in the present day I'm not so sure Juan Sanchez from Mexico City has a strong claim to "from Texas to California".
Could we be dealing with a proposed right of return? |
Yeah, I think so. Obama gave a speech recently where he said that there were Mexicans living in the area that is now the US before the US was an idea. Yes, he's your president. Mexico didn't exist then but Mexicans did? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
I see the point, but in the present day I'm not so sure Juan Sanchez from Mexico City has a strong claim to "from Texas to California".
Could we be dealing with a proposed right of return? |
Yeah, I think so. Obama gave a speech recently where he said that there were Mexicans living in the area that is now the US before the US was an idea. Yes, he's your president. Mexico didn't exist then but Mexicans did? |
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| Yes, he's your president. |
At this point I'm pretty sure he's not working for me.
Any thoughts on border security? I see the gov't half-measures and then I read an article claiming that our southern border is too long to be properly protected. Here's a 2006 article I found - it's old but contains alot of interesting facts and figures:
http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=407
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| Of the approximately 11,000 Border Patrol agents, 89 percent work along the US-Mexico border. In contrast, there are approximately 980 agents currently working along the 4,000-mile US-Canada border. In a recent speech on immigration reform, President Bush pledged to add 6,000 more Border Patrol agents by the end of 2008. In the interim, 6,000 National Guard troops will be sent to the southern border to provide support services to the Border Patrol, such as construction and surveillance. (Source: Customs and Border Protection) |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| If I were in the business of smuggling people into the USA from Mexico, I think I'd look into using a boat and doing it via the Gulf of Mexico these days. Probably shorter (and safer) than via land now. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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What the heck is going on in Canada:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/multiculturalism/a-few-frank-words-about-immigration/article1746816/
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Of all the issues of concern to the future of Toronto, there�s one that�s off limits during this mayoral election. It�s so taboo that nobody will even say the word. It�s I-M-M-I-G-R-A-T-I-O-N.
Immigration has helped make Toronto one of the most successful and diverse cities in the world. That�s the good news. The bad news is, a lot of immigrants aren�t doing well. Many of them live in what are known as �priority neighbourhoods,� where unemployment is high and incomes are low. The number of people receiving social assistance has gone up. Although the city has no say in immigration policy, it pays the bills. Meantime, another 100,000 immigrants are arriving in the city every year.
This is not a rant. It�s a plea for honest conversation. And that�s sometimes hard to have. Just ask the people who launched the Centre for Immigration Policy Reform last week. They think our immigration policies could be better. The NDP immediately attacked them for being �un-Canadian.� One immigration lawyer called the group a bunch of grumpy old white men who�d be hard to take seriously �were it not for their ability to fan the flames of intolerance.�
Who are these intolerant un-Canadians? One is James Bissett, who used to head the Canadian Immigration Service. Another is Martin Collacott, a former ambassador to Sri Lanka, Syria, Lebanon and Cambodia. A third is Derek Burney, Canada�s ambassador to the U.S. during the free-trade talks.
I asked Mr. Burney why he got involved. �I fully agree that the system is broken,� he says. �There�s too much abuse, too much fraud, and no rhyme or reason about what we�re doing. It�s just a numbers game.�
Canada admits 250,000 immigrants a year, a higher rate than any other country. Why? No one can say. It�s not to raise the birth rate or replace our aging workers � the numbers don�t work out that way. Is it to create wealth and improve our productivity? If so, it isn�t working.
Mr. Burney argues that current immigration policies are dragging down our productivity, not increasing it. The two fastest-growing groups in our population are aboriginals and new immigrants. �They�re also the ones with the fewest skills to perform in our economy,� he says.
Our system is supposed to select for success. But only 17 per cent of new arrivals are fully assessed on the basis of their employment and language skills. Half never meet a visa officer at all. Most of the people we bring in are �family class� immigrants, including parents and grandparents. The Centre for Immigration Policy Reform estimates that recent immigrants receive billions of dollars a year more in benefits than they pay in taxes. �We�re building a problem of enormous proportions,� Mr. Burney says.
The prevailing narrative is that if immigrants are doing badly, the fault must be ours. They�re held back by subtle discrimination, we don�t recognize their credentials and so on. No doubt there�s some truth in this. But the greater truth is that making a go of it in a postindustrial knowledge-based economy isn�t easy. Success depends on sophisticated language and communication skills � along with knowledge of local networks � that many newer immigrants never acquire. And their kids? Their success depends largely on �ethnic capital,� a culture that values education and expects kids to excel. Kids from cultures with lots of ethnic capital do vastly better than kids from cultures that have little.
No political parties, not even the Conservatives, are in any hurry to debate how many, and who, we bring in. After all, they need the ethnic votes. So the debate has been largely ceded to the immigration industry � an army of lawyers and consultants who try to shut it down by calling people nasty names.
�That doesn�t bother me,� Mr. Burney says with a laugh. �During the free-trade debate, they called me a traitor.� A number of people have also quietly thanked him for opening his mouth. Politicians may not welcome this debate. But plenty of Canadians think it�s long overdue. |
Out of the blue, a sensible discussion on immigration. Even the numbers! |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/multiculturalism/which-immigrant-would-you-choose-for-canada/article1743189/?cmpid=rss1
^ Now that is an interesting article. |
One of the commentators loved Lei, despite her lack of English skills, because she had a family support network she'd be joining. I have to agree that a family network is a strong factor in favor of an applicant.
I thought Deephak was the best, but I guess not. Something about Canadian qualifications for physicians. He's perfect for the US, though.
Tom was strong but I guess too old and too American. Too bad.
Maricel and Aisha were both hugely problematic. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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The doctors have issues:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Foreign+doctors+passing+Canada+certification+exams+study/3617664/story.html
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With Canada�s doctor shortage still dire, medical authorities are under constant pressure to let more foreign-trained medical graduates work here as physicians. But two new studies point to a significant roadblock: close to half of those who make it past rigorous screening and into family-medicine post-graduate training fail to pass their certification exams.
Researchers say the reasons may lie with the quality � or teaching approach � of overseas medical schools, which sometimes instill a more traditional, doctor-knows-best philosophy.
And the performance of those offshore schools is also an issue for the growing number of Canadian-born students who are getting their medical degrees overseas, after failing to be admitted to schools here, researchers say.
�I was surprised to see the facts,� said Dr. Anne-Marie MacLellan of the Quebec college of medicine, the province�s physician regulator, and author of a study on Quebec�s situation. �The international medical graduate who really wants to make Canada the place to immigrate, they need to know there can be some difficulties.�
Researchers and officials stress that the findings do not suggest Canada should turn its back on foreign-trained MDs who settle here � especially since they save taxpayers the substantial cost of medical school education � but that more needs to be done to help them become full-fledged Canadian physicians.
Although the two studies, just published in the journal Canadian Family Physician, are the first to expose the problem widely, the phenomenon has been well-known within the medical community, doctors say.
...
Dr. MacLellan suggested that Canada also consider emulating a U.S. decision announced last week: Starting in 2023, the country will accept international graduates only from schools that have been accredited according to globally accepted standards.
In Canada, only graduates of medical schools in this country and the United States are considered automatically qualified for a residency � the taxpayer-funded, two years of on-the-job training required to become a family doctor and five years to become a specialist.
Others must pass a screening process that typically includes exams and language testing, designed to ensure they have at least the same level of medical knowledge as Canadian graduates.
Dr. MacLellan�s study looked at IMGs and graduates of Canadian schools who made it into residency programs from 2001 to 2008 and their results on the final, certification exams to determine if they can practice. The average pass rate for international graduates was 56%, versus 93.5% for the Canadians.
A separate study at Vancouver�s St. Paul�s Hospital, where a special program was set up for IMGs in 2006 to help them perform better, found the internationals did as well as Canadians on assessments during the training, but that their final exam pass rate was a �disappointing� 58%, compared to 97% for the Canadians.
It is estimated that 1,500 Canadians are now studying at overseas medical schools, and are considered IMGs when they come back. They often fare poorly in residency exams, too, said Dr. Rod Andrew, who headed the study. �That�s because many of them are going to medical schools that are just not up to par.�
The international residents� problems lie in the oral, clinical part of the tests, where examiners pose as patients, and see how the would-be doctors handle the hypothetical cases presented them. It seems many of their medical schools did not teach them the modern North American medical approach, where doctors are encouraged to get patients to �buy in� to their diagnosis and treatment.
�Many international medical graduates � are trained to say, �I�m the doctor, this is what you do,� � Dr. Andrew said.
The good news is that further work on that aspect of the exams helped bring up IMG pass rates in the two years since the end of the study period,to 74% in 2008 and 83% in 2009, he said. |
Here's a CBC piece on immigration from this week:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Shows/The_National/Canada/ID=1608265230
They feature a Chinese girl who can't speak English and wants to work in finance (strike one and two), a Brazilian MBA, a French girl with a marketing degree and a Brazilian graphic designer. The Canadian economy doesn't need any of them. The economy has 8.1% unemployment. Canada doesn't need any of them. They can't find jobs because there are no jobs. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| One of the commentators loved Lei, despite her lack of English skills, because she had a family support network she'd be joining. I have to agree that a family network is a strong factor in favor of an applicant. |
It helps. You don't want individuals all alone, especially when they fail (of no fault of their own) in finding appropriate work.
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| I thought Deephak was the best, but I guess not. Something about Canadian qualifications for physicians. He's perfect for the US, though. |
I have concerns with Indian trained doctors. There are hundreds of shady degree mills in India. Canada should insist on accredited schools.
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| Tom was strong but I guess too old and too American. |
Has capital and the ability to create jobs straight away. He'll have zero cultural issues. Calgary would suit him.
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| Maricel and Aisha were both hugely problematic. |
No kidding.
..
I guess this is the benefit of having America to the south and Oceans everywhere else eh? |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, a definite downside to the point system. The States has immigration paths for family or for economic skills, and basically for the latter, you have to have a job in hand. The ludicrous part of it is all the hoops companies have to jump through to make sure Americans would get the job, which makes it kinda hard for the immigrant to stay in the picture unless the job posting is targeted to the foreign applicant (what else are immigration attorneys for?). Nevertheless, those coming on the economic immigration track have the best shot.
But meanwhile, our non-immigration economic pathway is completely and utterly[Mod Edit] |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the US has to throw the system in the trash and start over. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/multiculturalism/which-immigrant-would-you-choose-for-canada/article1743189/?cmpid=rss1
^ Now that is an interesting article. |
I liked these comments in the Aisha section:
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| But it looks like she�s going to have some problems at home. It�s sort of the clash of our multiculturalist values on the one hand and on the other hand wanting to promote standards of equality that permeate the entire country. |
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| The main conflict would be that people like her father come to Canada wanting the economic opportunities but thinking somehow they can live as they did back in their old country in terms of their family traditions. |
Even multicultural nations need to have some realistic cultural standards. I think Muslims are so often talked about in this context because the culture in many Islamic nations really isn't very compatible with multiculturalism. More nations are obviously waking up to this fact.
Like Warrior, I thought Deephak was the strongest choice due to my lack of knowledge about the Canadian medical system. I also think Tom is a strong choice as well, though. The fact that he won't become a citizen isn't a deterrent in my eyes; if his presence is going to create jobs and economic activity in Canada, and his presence isn't going to cause problems, then I'd be happy to welcome him. A policy focused on netting people like Lei isn't necessary a bad one, but I think there's plenty of room for some Toms as well. |
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