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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Every time I walk past her I think "you bloody silly bugger." But then, I'm quite mean.  |
Yes, and this is your redeeming quality. Its not like we enjoy you for your silly opinions.  |
Hahaha.  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Gelded Goat wrote: |
| How does banning the wearing of a facial garment prevent Muslims from abusing the French welfare? Just like the outlawing of marijuana in response to an influx of Mexicans, this new ban makes no sense in the context of its intended goals |
Good points, but you said you saw no difference between banning the veil and banning drugs, so I thought I would suggest one such difference - that immigrants to the US in the early 20th century were resented because they worked for next to nothing and caused unemployment*, whereas in France, Muslim immigrants don't work - instead, they sponge off the taxpayer. Not all, of course.
I'm not in favor of banning clothing, but discriminating against hardworking immigrants is an example of bad discrimination. Discriminating against welfare immigrants is good, necessary discrimination. The problem is, the French have correctly identified the disease but prescribed the wrong medicine. In fact, it isn't even medicine at all! Banning the veil just creates a superficially pleasing appearance of "doing something" - doing something about the French welfare state turning France into a country overrun with third world barbarians. The French don't like to see the veil, not because they care particularly for the woman underneath, but because they're a patriotic, secular people and don't like to be reminded that France is becoming very African and very Muslim.
* so the theory went (in actual fact, cheap Irish, Chinese and Mexican labor meant cheaper products, more savings and more jobs in other industries) |
Don't forget that it is really quite difficult for North African immigrants to GET A JOB in France. The French have never properly accepted them and discrimination against them is deeply ingrained in French society. When I lived in France I was friends with some North Africans - two of whom were trying desperately to find employment, and were always turned down.
Even with a degree behind you, if the name on your CV reads Monsieur Malik Bashir...you're screwed. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| When someone is concealed completely, it's a security threat. You can't go into a bank or post office in the US wearing a full motorcycle helmet either. |
I personally don't find that convincing, although people say it and some believe it. If that was the real reason it was being banned, most other head gear would be banned with it. But the fact it isn't says volumes. |
It's not convincing because it's nonsense. People wearing burqas and robbing banks using the anonymity the burqa provides might happen from time to time, but it's hardly a real social issue worthy of specific legislation to address it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| When someone is concealed completely, it's a security threat. You can't go into a bank or post office in the US wearing a full motorcycle helmet either. |
I personally don't find that convincing, although people say it and some believe it. If that was the real reason it was being banned, most other head gear would be banned with it. But the fact it isn't says volumes. |
Yeah, I agree with this. I think the security reason is just a secondary rationalisation. The primary reason for wanting to ban burkas and niqabs is....spitefulness. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I am not sure that the French are behaving in a retaliatory way against extreme laws elsewhere [...] |
Just to clarify, I'm not sure they are either. However, that was the idea Wishmaster was proposing in his "Muzzies" rant; that the West should behave retaliatorially to extreme Middle Eastern policies. For another example, look at his next post: "When they allow those things in the middle east, then perhaps more people will be open to allowing their mosques and Islamic garments."
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| Good points, but you said you saw no difference between banning the veil and banning drugs, so I thought I would suggest one such difference - that immigrants to the US in the early 20th century were resented because they worked for next to nothing and caused unemployment*, whereas in France, Muslim immigrants don't work - instead, they sponge off the taxpayer. Not all, of course. |
I guess I could have stated that better. I don't see any meaningful difference in the two situations. Both are examples of extreme, nonsensical 'solutions' to invading, foreign influences. And, assuming you're right about French Muslims and welfare (I'll freely admit to complete ignore about this), then both would also be responses to foreigners stealing financial security from the native lower classes.
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| I'm not in favor of banning clothing, but discriminating against hardworking immigrants is an example of bad discrimination. Discriminating against welfare immigrants is good, necessary discrimination. |
I have to agree with this. It sounds like a callous position to take, but no country is under any obligation to accept non-contributing individuals from outside its own borders. However, that's a problem best tackled through immigration laws, not clothing bans. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Just on general principle I am against this ban. WEar what you want when you want. I can see some restrictions in a security situation or a classroom where a ringer could be brought in during an exam. I know that the wearing of the veil is a subject of argument within the muslim community. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, retaliation is called for when you are dealing with Muzzies. If not checked, they will romp all over your freedoms. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| Yes, retaliation is called for when you are dealing with Muzzies. If not checked, they will romp all over your freedoms. |
Lets get rid of freedoms to protect freedom while being as condescending as possible while using thinly veiled, veiled get it, racism. You are great at making arguments. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| I call it like I see it, Leon. Perhaps the concept of freedom needs to be altered as it relates to violent cults that preach hatred and death on people that do not believe in their views. Think about it. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_a-25MhRuk
Uh. Europe won't survive? Europe won't be Europe. Ah. I guess it is just a thing to be meddled with. Not a home.
I sincerely hope the French veil move is the first in a long line of measures to protect the identity and demography of France. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_a-25MhRuk
Uh. Europe won't survive? Europe won't be Europe. Ah. I guess it is just a thing to be meddled with. Not a home.
I sincerely hope the French veil move is the first in a long line of measures to protect the identity and demography of France. |
France will be France. They have a birthrate exceeding 2.0 and a sense that their culture is worth preserving. On occasion, I'm sure they'll overstep their bounds (the Roma are not remotely an existential threat), but if I have to pick an example of keeping Europe Europe, it would be France.
Its easy for us from immigrant nations (the Commonwealth minus Britain) to tell Europe to be open to all comers. But Europe is filled with ethnic homelands and homogenous cultures.
Europe doesn't have to be multicultural, and arguably it shouldn't be. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| I call it like I see it, Leon. Perhaps the concept of freedom needs to be altered as it relates to violent cults that preach hatred and death on people that do not believe in their views. Think about it. |
Which cult is this? The cult of democracy where thousands die so that countries can have elections? Many things can be framed in the same manner that you frame Islam. The third largest religion in the world hardly constitutes a cult. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Europe doesn't have to be multicultural, and arguably it shouldn't be. |
Well, the past century or twenty has certainly shown that Europe isn't very welcoming of other cultures, so it really shouldn't be suprising that things like this continue to happen. If France wants to come off as bigotted to the rest of the world, that's their deal. Heck, it makes my life easier as an American in Korea, as it's one more thing I can throw back at the ludicrous anti-American rants that always seem to rear their heads at social functions. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Granted their is very high unemployment among French Muslims. That may be less to do with racism than with the fact that unemployment is heavily subsidized by the French government. Whenever a government subsidizes an activity like unemployment through entitlements that activity will grow.
In the French banlieu generations of Muslims are growing up with no familial experience of work, they accept government entitlements and live in public housing projects where sharia is the de facto system of law. I read somewhere that 40% of French Imams are on the dole.
Banning the burka is a way of trying to integrate Muslim women, to make them less cut off from French society and a little more free of Sharia.
It won't work however. The Muslim population is a young one. It is growing by leaps and bounds with a birthrate that far outstrips the indiginous population. The ethnic French population is old and tired.
Nothing beats demographics in a democracy except maybe civil war and that was tried in Serbia with horrible genocidal consequences. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Just caught this update on the CNN news feed:
French burqa ban clears last legal obstacle.
This is the first time I've seen the penalties for breaking the new law.
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| The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil. Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil." |
France obviously acknowledges the distinction between forcing a woman to wear a veil and a woman simply wearing one, even by choice, yet still chooses to punish both. And that punishment could involve a forced citizenship course, presumably where the offender will learn of France's long history of opposition to costumed faces. |
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