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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
Urban Myth, that was pretty good.
Even Hatter, the people in South America were quite supportive of my efforts to learn Spanish and Quechua.
That's why I was shocked when I came here and found the Korean people were not more supportive of my efforts to learn Korean.
While we're on The Pirates of Penzance, I remember that there was some punning on the words "pilot" and "pirate."
Since Korean students confuse L and R sounds, maybe there is something we can do with that. |
Totardo -
I find this hard to believe quite frankly.
I am having free Korean lessons at my hakwan (it is part of our benefit package) and everyone is uber supportive of my learning proccess and all of my Korean friends and co-workers seem genuinely impressed and boardering on estatic to be honest when I use Korean in social situations.
Also in my daily life I find Koreans genuinely patient and also happy when I use Korean at the gimbap nara or the bakery for example. They always smile, their faces literally lighting up with a warm, proud glow and they say in Korean 'Oh wow, you are speaking korean so well' etc.
Perhaps you try to come accross to Koreans as arrogant or something like you seem to in your posts during this thread?
Like you know, suggesting we 'have fun' with out students inabilty to pronounce L and R correctly?
Why would you do that if you respected your studetns and not disdain them? |
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wiganer
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
| tomato wrote: |
Urban Myth, that was pretty good.
Even Hatter, the people in South America were quite supportive of my efforts to learn Spanish and Quechua.
That's why I was shocked when I came here and found the Korean people were not more supportive of my efforts to learn Korean.
While we're on The Pirates of Penzance, I remember that there was some punning on the words "pilot" and "pirate."
Since Korean students confuse L and R sounds, maybe there is something we can do with that. |
Totardo -
I find this hard to believe quite frankly.
I am having free Korean lessons at my hakwan (it is part of our benefit package) and everyone is uber supportive of my learning proccess and all of my Korean friends and co-workers seem genuinely impressed and boardering on estatic to be honest when I use Korean in social situations.
Also in my daily life I find Koreans genuinely patient and also happy when I use Korean at the gimbap nara or the bakery for example. They always smile, their faces literally lighting up with a warm, proud glow and they say in Korean 'Oh wow, you are speaking korean so well' etc.
Perhaps you try to come accross to Koreans as arrogant or something like you seem to in your posts during this thread?
Like you know, suggesting we 'have fun' with out students inabilty to pronounce L and R correctly?
Why would you do that if you respected your studetns and not disdain them? |
How long have you been in the country? |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: |
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For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you?
And second how does how long I've been in the country address the topic at hand?
Why does it make any difference and why do you ask? |
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wiganer
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
| For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you? |
And you are still taking Korean lessons?
How long did I spent in Korea - years and years! 
And my dad spent 18 months here from late 1950 to 1952... I remember before I flew out to my first hagwon job my old man telling me how great the people were and then he came to visit me a few years ago and was shocked and saddened how rude the people were - I suppose saving folks from a unforgiving enemy makes people grateful
at the time - it is a pity some of them forget but then I do remember talking to an old adjosshi (must have been about 70 years old) telling me about the 'men from 16 nations who came to fight for their freedom' so not everyone has forgot.
An aside from what is being discussed here but I thought it would be of interest on how Koreans today were percieved from their forefathers 60 years ago.
PS: Just done some maths - and you have spent a total of 7 months (taking into account the estimate you are 24 years old..) in Korea since you were four years old... big bloody deal!
How long have you been teaching here? |
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wiganer
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
Why does it make any difference and why do you ask? |
Well, I'll tell you why and that's because it hasn't been my experience nor many people who have tried to learn and converse in Korean. I have been laughed at, openly mocked and ignored when I have tried to converse in Korean, the same experience has been felt by my friends. That is not to say every Korean is like that and there are some very kind, gracious Koreans but there is a sizeable number who will make you feel uncomfortable if you try to speak to them in their language. Which is Tomato's whole point.
If you have only been living here a few months full time. Your point of view doesn't have the gravitas of Tomato's who has been living and working here a long time, your views will be influenced by something called 'the honeymoon period' your view will change within time. That's all. |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Okay I understand what you are talking about.
Please take what I am about to say in good faith and don't think that I am inferring anything negative about either your drive to Learn Korean or your application towards it.
Korean is a very difficult languge. I grew up in a Korean household and around Korean relatives and friends of relatives so I am lucky in that regard with my Korean studies.
Korean is a very difficult language with very subtle differences in inflection. I have Western friends here who have studied for years and lived here for years and even one who has passed the Korean Language test at stage 5 and still has trouble.
It is not because koreans are bad people or enjoy mocking foriegners that you and he get a bemued reaction.
It is simply because many Koreans have lived very sheltered lives in comparison to westerners and their culture is very inclusive as I'm sure you know - for better or for worse. They have not met many foriegners and unless you started learning korean at a very young age (you'll note Kids in the ps system with SE Asian Mothers do not have the problems you mention) you will always sound a bit 'off key' to Koreans when you speak Korean. The pronunciation literally has to be perfect! I know right - so tough! I mean in the US if we hear an Italian with a thick accent speak English we can still make out what they are trying to say!
But in Korean it's different and unless your inflection is 100% natural and percect, it will sound off key and then to a Korean - they will be bemused that an outsider (in their minds) is trying to sound like a Korean.
Japanese are the same. Is it right? Not to a westerner. Is it wrong? Not to a Japanese.
Just the way it is - for better or for worse - it is what it is but it is -ultimately a cultural differance and not something done out of malice or spite etc. Koreans are the way they are. Please do not imagine 45+ Million people are spiteful towards foriegners as this would be a great faux pas on your part, that's all.
Also you should observe as to how a korean of your age or position relative to your interlocutor would act or address the person you are going to address in Korean. You see, if your tone or posture, or mannerism is off this also comes accross as funny to a Korean like 'Oh he is saying the right words, but he should not address me like that!'
I have been with Western friends who speak Korean to at least upper int level but when they address the person they go about it all wrong, especially with Korean seniors or persons in positions of authority.
Again, for better or for worse this is something you can only really know if you grow up through it. Hence why for kids not of korean or of mixed ethnicity have no problem but foriegners who are adults do. And hence my friends who grew up in nonKorean households have problems but many of my kyopo friends do not. And also a friend of mine who was born in Korea and is an adoptee and grew up in a caucasian household is having the problems you and tomato are facing. Doesn't it make sense now?
I had a student at my hakwan who is Korean and left here to live in the US when she was 13. She returned at 16 and tried to re-adjust to Korean high school but found it so hard.
So for a foriegner who comes here as an adult - they don't realise it but they are starting at year one of when a Korean native starts speaking to other koreans - about 2 years old.
Remember this country was a 'hermit Kingdon' up until the Japanese invaded in the early 1900's.
Please try to think outside of the box, it will make your time in Korea so much easier. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
Like you know, suggesting we 'have fun' with our students' inability to pronounce L and R correctly?
Why would you do that if you respected your students and not disdain them? |
Because I didn't realize it was disrespectful to laugh about language learning problems.
In the United States, I was sitting at the dinner table with a group of other Spanish students. One of the students had served in the Peace Corps in South America. He met a woman who told him that she had worked as counsellor in a summer camp. She had 20 girls in her cabin. At the time, my friend had a habit of saying � when he should say n. So he said "Que dif�cil debe ser orde�ar tantas se�oritas!"
He meant to say "How difficult it must be to keep so many young ladies in order!" But what he really said was "How difficult it must be to milk so many young ladies!"
When he finished this story, we all laughed. If I understand your logic correctly, that means that we were all cruel and heartless.
Another time, I was in a Spanish class. The teacher was teaching the word brincar. I raised my hand and said, "We should all watch how we use that word, because it means different things in different places."
The teacher said, "But brincar means 'jump.'"
I said, "Not in Bolivia it doesn't. I know because one time I used that word and then wished I didn't."
The class laughed. Now wasn't that cruel and heartless of them!
I never denied that ㄹ's were as difficult for me as L's and R's are for Koreans. One time, I asked a grocery store clerk for 물. The clerk directed me to the radishes, because he thought I said 무.
Now please don't laugh at me or you will hurt my feelings.
| Quote: |
| Perhaps you try to come across to Koreans as arrogant or something like you seem to in your posts during this thread? |
Why no, on the contrary! I want to come across as kind and gentle and thoughtful and considerate, just like you come across to me!
And now if you will excuse me, I have to order a WWEHD bracelet. |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| wiganer wrote: |
| Even Hotter wrote: |
| For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you? |
And you are still taking Korean lessons?
How long did I spent in Korea - years and years!
And my dad spent 18 months here from late 1950 to 1952... I remember before I flew out to my first hagwon job my old man telling me how great the people were and then he came to visit me a few years ago and was shocked and saddened how rude the people were - I suppose saving folks from a unforgiving enemy makes people grateful
at the time - it is a pity some of them forget but then I do remember talking to an old adjosshi (must have been about 70 years old) telling me about the 'men from 16 nations who came to fight for their freedom' so not everyone has forgot.
An aside from what is being discussed here but I thought it would be of interest on how Koreans today were percieved from their forefathers 60 years ago.
PS: Just done some maths - and you have spent a total of 7 months (taking into account the estimate you are 24 years old..) in Korea since you were four years old... big bloody deal!
How long have you been teaching here? |
Yes, impoverished peasants, most of them homeless, desitute after their country had been first raped and brutalised by Japanese colonists and then virtually demolished beyond recognintion by a war waged by outsiders and due to outside conflicting philosophies (capitalism vs communism in the wake of ww2 when the western 'powers' were divying up the globe) in their land, utterly ravaging it out of any recognition - yes that would make people thankful to anyone making their lives any little bit easier or saving them and their families from death wouldn't it.
And your point is?
And why the smilely icons?
Did I mistake you as a serious person who might have an ounce of human feeling and humility in their heart? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Wigener is right: It is all a welcome ritual.
Some of those smiling compliments are a millimeter deep. A restaurant patron once greeted me with the usual "우우우! 한국말 잘 하신데에에에!" Then he promptly turned to the restaurateur and asked her what country I was from.
| You wrote: |
| Did I mistake you as a serious person who might have an ounce of human feeling and humility in their heart? |
He defended me from you, didn't he? |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Even Hotter wrote: |
| Did I mistake you as a serious person who might have an ounce of human feeling and humility in their heart? |
He defended me from you, didn't he? |
Wow.
You have this 8 page long thread where you try to come accross as some kind of martyr.
You even pretend to use logic and reason to promote your cause.
And then when I offer you a very unbiased and level headed take on your problems based on 35 years of knowledge of Korean culture gained from growing up in a Korean household - instead of taking that on board or even taking those parts of my post and trying to address them, you choose to make silly jokes and only quote parts that you can make fickle jokes about.
Well all I can say is I'll waste no more effort and I still hope you will re-read my post and advice re korean language in the context of Korean culture (the main point you seem to be missing) and if not, then I think you have shown your true colors and the extent to which you understand and ultimately care about the culture you claim to be so desperately trying to adapt to (so much so that you make an 8 page thread and go to the effort of creating your fictional 'Ferguson society etc.') |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you?
And second how does how long I've been in the country address the topic at hand?
Why does it make any difference and why do you ask? |
Are you a 교포? |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Even Hotter wrote: |
For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you?
And second how does how long I've been in the country address the topic at hand?
Why does it make any difference and why do you ask? |
Are you a 교포? |
한국 |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Even Hotter wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Even Hotter wrote: |
For around a month every 3 years since I was 4 years old and you?
And second how does how long I've been in the country address the topic at hand?
Why does it make any difference and why do you ask? |
Are you a 교포? |
한국 |
Er, don't you see there may be a slight difference in treatment between you and those of us who look more obviously foreign? That it may be difficult for you to understand Tomato's point because you don't quite get the same treatment here?
An example of this- I know I can speak Korean as well as, if not better than, my Asian-American friend. Yet I find when we'll go to a restaurant together the waiters/waitresses will inevitably look towards him when we enter/order and even after I've spoken out in Korean they will continue do it as though he's the 'Korean' and therefore must be deferred to.
This also extends to people giving out leaflets in the streets who will only target him and ignore me and various other situations.
We've both noticed this phenomenon- how Koreans will assume he knows the language (because of his Asian features) and assume I don't (because of my non-Asian features) and have laughed about it.
The point is, it might be the case that because of your ethnic background Koreans are more supportive of your efforts to use the language than the likes of Tomato.
Of course, I meet some nice people who are willing to speak to me in Korean but I can definitely sympathize with Tomato as there are many who insist on only replying in English. I also understand the importance to them of opportunities to practice their English so I try to be patient but it is frustrating sometimes when I've put a lot of time and effort into learning the language and there are often so few times when I can use it.
내가 한국이를 배우는 것을 시간 낭비한 것 같다 ㅜ ㅜ |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Let me get this straight:
You're a second-generation Korean, but you know all about what it's like to be a White person in Korea?
If so, then I'll have to tell you all about what it's like to be a second-generation Korean in our culture. |
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Even Hotter
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
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ERm - NOOOOOOOO1
What you fail to realise is that
I
Am
The
Poster
Formerly
Known
As
HOTWIRE!!!! |
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