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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| interestedinhanguk wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| sublunari wrote: |
| toadkillerdog wrote: |
| Not all of them are poor. Quite a few of the elderly collect recyclable stuff to add income to their families. They want to contribute to the family but are unable to get part-time work. |
My girlfriend has told me as much. This includes the somewhat dilapidated-looking old folks who sit outside on the sidewalk all day selling a few handfuls of produce from their red plastic baskets. Their kids are apparently grown up, able to take care of themselves, and to support their parents, but the elders still want to be sending them money. Nonetheless I still find all of this difficult to believe. |
I've heard stories like too, as well as the, "It's just a hobby," line. I found myself strongly suspecting that it's a lie they're telling themselves to avoid having to acknowledge their society has left these elderly folks to sink or swim instead of sharing in the prosperity of the society around them. |
exactly. Face-saving for the Han nation. |
Western nations aren't exactly role models so I don't know where people are getting this sense of superiority from. There are plenty of elderly homeless people living on the streets back home...at least these people here have some kind of job. |
Well, if your back home is my back home, then the only elderly living on the streets would be those who are rejecting the welfare available to them from the British Social Services. Even though that welfare has been chipped away at in the last 30 years, it's still enough for those over 65 to have a home and pay the food and utilities......only barely though......
.......what welfare is available to the over 65's in Korea?
Anyway, the big unknown here is how many of these Korean elderly push carts because they want to, or because they have to to survive. That would need answered before any debate.
What wouldn't surprise me at all is if a lot of countries with a lot less of a GDP than Korea are offering more welfare to their elderly.
It just doesn't jive with the neo-confucianism style of Korea. Paying taxes to help poor people of low status who you don't even know. |
Only it does.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2010/10/291_69271.html
If the article is not good enough for you I can link you to some scholarly papers on the topic...you have to be able to read Korean pretty fluently though. According to the article currently 81 TRILLION won is allotted to social welfare as of now. It is also stated that it covers EVERYONE.
Nor is it written by that idiot there...note who it is written by and her qualifications.
As for homeless in Canada where I am from
http://www.streetlevelconsulting.ca/homepage/homelessnessInCanada_Part1.htm
The number of homeless people is estimated to be around 35,000-40,000 thousand people and that doesn't even include the number of people living in places that due to their extremely run-down condition can barely be called a home.
The number of homeless is even larger in the U.S...but that's not where I'm from so we'll let that rest for now.
Anyway getting back to the article for a moment it seems clear that there are FOUR programs for Koreans (3 for retired/older people), your claims about the"neo-confucianism style of Korea" notwithstanding.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Despite your pompous assumptions (Urbanmyth pompous??? No way!!) I had read the article you've linked.
From that article.....that you linked, I guess, because I said Korea's welfare system has a ways to go.....
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| It is true that Korea's welfare budget is still low compared to that of other developed nations. But the nation has come a long way from the ashes of the Korean War to become the 15th largest economy in the world. |
It seems the writer of the article is aware that Korea's welfare budget is still below par.
I was aware from reading that article a couple of days ago that the Korean government have big plans (if they ever happen is another story) for their welfare system, but as things stand, they're spending less than other wealthy countries on welfare.
Cue your unbearably pompous and smug response.......Still teaching us all reading comprehension? |
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McGenghis
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: Gangneung
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd imagine that what makes hauling cardboard around at least bearable for these older Korean folk is that have real memories of even harsher conditions. A 70 year old granny with cart in tow can likely remember some very lean times after the war, when budaejjigae was gourmet. Maybe this is what allows my local halmeoni to gather rubbish with a warm smile on her face. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
Despite your pompous assumptions (Urbanmyth pompous??? No way!!) I had read the article you've linked.
From that article.....that you linked, I guess, because I said Korea's welfare system has a ways to go.....
| Quote: |
| It is true that Korea's welfare budget is still low compared to that of other developed nations. But the nation has come a long way from the ashes of the Korean War to become the 15th largest economy in the world. |
It seems the writer of the article is aware that Korea's welfare budget is still below par.
I was aware from reading that article a couple of days ago that the Korean government have big plans (if they ever happen is another story) for their welfare system, but as things stand, they're spending less than other wealthy countries on welfare.
Cue your unbearably pompous and smug response.......Still teaching us all reading comprehension? |
And your post above is not pompous and smug in the least.
Anyway nice try at switching the goalposts. You were (I'll be kind and say "apparently") trying to claim that there were little or no social programs here.
| eamo wrote: |
| It just doesn't jive with the neo-confucianism style of Korea. Paying taxes to help poor people of low status who you don't even know." |
Now suddenly you are back-pedaling and claiming you've read the article.
And in a pathetic attempt to win the argument you are now switching the goalposts by stating Korea is spending less then other wealthy countries on welfare. Well yes, that is true. But two things: First compared to the other wealthy countries (OECD_) it is at the bottom in terms of the available money.
And secondly that was not even my argument. I was arguing that Korea DOES have a welfare system...and if you were aware of such a fact (a) why did you (apparently) attempt to deny it? And (b) ask
| eamo wrote: |
| ".....what welfare is available to the over 65's in Korea?" |
? |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Claiming I read the article??? Of course I read the article!! Do you think I would lower my personal integrity to lie to deluded strangers on a message forum....?
Again, your pompous attitude has you believing that you're the only one out there who reads up on things and can possibly be correct.
Also, I was well aware that Korea does have a barebones welfare system.....God knows I talked about this extensively with my Korean friend who was made unemployed recently. There is a bare bones, but it's seen as a bit of a joke by Koreans themselves.
And me asking 'what welfare is available to the over 65's' should be an easy one for someone with your reading comprehension skills......it's a simple question. What welfare is available to those people? A little? A lot? Some? How much?
Come on, UM........I thought you were supposed to be teaching us reading skills?? I think you need a few lessons of your own...
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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OK, enough of the childish little barbs at each other. Or does someone need a timeout?
Koharski |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I've heard stories like too, as well as the, "It's just a hobby," line. I found myself strongly suspecting that it's a lie they're telling themselves to avoid having to acknowledge their society has left these elderly folks to sink or swim instead of sharing in the prosperity of the society around them. |
| Quote: |
| exactly. Face-saving for the Han nation. |
Not working would be losing face to them.
It's a sense of responsibility that's hard to cure.
You take anyone who grew up in a family-centered lean times environment where they had to care for others and they will tend to have that mentality.
It's like grandma always having to cook for you.
Believe it or not some people like to work. Not everyone thinks like us. Trust me there are plenty of old people around the world who would look at old Korean people still going out and doing something to work and make money and keep active and provide for their family and "get it" and nod along in agreement.
I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
And me asking 'what welfare is available to the over 65's' should be an easy one for someone with your reading comprehension skills......it's a simple question. What welfare is available to those people? A little? A lot? Some? How much?
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Mr eamo, mr eamo...
You did ask "what welfare is available to the over 65's."
And that was your question...you did not ask "how much welfare is available to the over 65's?"
"How much" (in this case) would indicate the amount (such as a lot or a little).
"what" would seem to indicate the type or kinds of programs no?
Anyway to get back on topic, I do agree it is limited (in comparison to other rich countries) but it does exist and is getting better. From where Korea started (occupied and its natural resources plundered and a civil war that pretty much flattened the country) it's not that bad.
So I would assume that most cardboard collectors are doing it as a hobby/to earn an extra little money. I mean they've lived to a ripe old age so they can't be doing THAT badly. Yes some are probably worse off...it happens. All countries have problems with poverty...some worse than others. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Semantics aren't needed.....just be assured that my question meant what level of welfare can those people get. It wasn't an assertion that they don't get any welfare at all.
As I said before, we don't know how many of them do it for a hobby or how many do it for a subsistence income........I do agree with Steelrails that the generation we're talking about have an amazing work ethic.....but I don't think they're pushing those carts all day in all weathers for fun......I think they need to. |
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interestedinhanguk
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've heard stories like too, as well as the, "It's just a hobby," line. I found myself strongly suspecting that it's a lie they're telling themselves to avoid having to acknowledge their society has left these elderly folks to sink or swim instead of sharing in the prosperity of the society around them. |
| Quote: |
| exactly. Face-saving for the Han nation. |
Not working would be losing face to them.
It's a sense of responsibility that's hard to cure.
You take anyone who grew up in a family-centered lean times environment where they had to care for others and they will tend to have that mentality.
It's like grandma always having to cook for you.
Believe it or not some people like to work. Not everyone thinks like us. Trust me there are plenty of old people around the world who would look at old Korean people still going out and doing something to work and make money and keep active and provide for their family and "get it" and nod along in agreement.
I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. |
I don't get how you can pull this sort of stuff out of nowhere. Did you even try to understand the sense of my post? It's saying that those claiming, "it's just a hobby" are the ones trying to save face for all parties. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
Semantics aren't needed.....just be assured that my question meant what level of welfare can those people get. It wasn't an assertion that they don't get any welfare at all.
As I said before, we don't know how many of them do it for a hobby or how many do it for a subsistence income........I do agree with Steelrails that the generation we're talking about have an amazing work ethic.....but I don't think they're pushing those carts all day in all weathers for fun......I think they need to. |
I asked my wife if she thought most of the older people who collect the cardboard do it out of necessity. She told me that most of them need the money or at least do it to help supplement what little retirement/savings they have. She knows one of the old ladies in our neighborhood who gathers the cardboard. She said the woman's children give her a little money a couple of times a year. The total would probably come to 300,000ish won a year. My wife is fairly tight with money, but she has given the old lady 10,000won a couple of times. It's sad to think that the children of the old lady have basically moved out of town and neglected her. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| interestedinhanguk wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've heard stories like too, as well as the, "It's just a hobby," line. I found myself strongly suspecting that it's a lie they're telling themselves to avoid having to acknowledge their society has left these elderly folks to sink or swim instead of sharing in the prosperity of the society around them. |
| Quote: |
| exactly. Face-saving for the Han nation. |
Not working would be losing face to them.
It's a sense of responsibility that's hard to cure.
You take anyone who grew up in a family-centered lean times environment where they had to care for others and they will tend to have that mentality.
It's like grandma always having to cook for you.
Believe it or not some people like to work. Not everyone thinks like us. Trust me there are plenty of old people around the world who would look at old Korean people still going out and doing something to work and make money and keep active and provide for their family and "get it" and nod along in agreement.
I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. |
I don't get how you can pull this sort of stuff out of nowhere. Did you even try to understand the sense of my post? It's saying that those claiming, "it's just a hobby" are the ones trying to save face for all parties. |
I believed my H.S. teacher when he in essence said that his bottle collecting was "a hobby", a way to keep busy and to grab free money.
If I can believe that of him, I can believe that some Koreans doing that are doing it as a hobby. Some are not. Some are trying to save face. But as for all? I've spent a fair amount of time around that generation- you have to chain them to their beds to stop them from keeping busy.
EDIT- Of course plenty are poor. Even the best Social Security can't stop a person from being a moron with their money.
Just trying to get people to understand that a sizable number are so wound up in 'work work work' that they can't help themselves. It's a shame that they can't sit back and enjoy whats owed to them, but then again its their attitude which helped provide a better life to their kids. Sadly, and fortunately, their attitude is what it is. Hey, if working makes you happy- work. You're over 60, you deserve to do something that makes you happy. Whether its getting wasted and vacationing to Jamaica and smoking grass or trying to feel useful by scrounging scrap, (or driving you Rascal scooter down the road at 10 miles an hour with a line of cars honking at you) if you're over 60 go out and enjoy.
I think Lou Reed said something along the lines of if you're under 60 drugs should be illegal but if you're over 60 you should be able to ingest anything you please. I agree with that outlook. |
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