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Private Tutoring - why illegal?
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ThingsComeAround

Joined: 07 Nov 2008

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject:

nathanrutledge wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

nathanrutledge wrote:

E-2 visa holders CAN work second jobs with permission. Now, how many people have ever been given permission? (yeah yeah, i know, everyone knows someone who's done it, whetever, we all know it's extremely rare to get permission).

Applied for it twice and got it both times. As long as the criteria for the second job fits Immigration's requirements it's fine.

And one of the criteria is permission from your employer. As you pointed out, most directors don't want you working for a competitor. I know it's doable, but it's not common.

It isn't what you ask, but how.

Ask the right question in the right way on the right day you'll get the right answer right away.

Who's Your Daddy?

Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject:

The Korean government wants money to stay in Korea. If you are working for a Korean the Korean is getting the majority and it is staying in country. They have the rules so that Koreans get the money, not foreigners. F2s and F5s are supporting a KOrean family so that's okay.

Missihippi

Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Location: Gwangmyeong

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject:

Troglodyte wrote:

Netz wrote:

Skyblue wrote:

Do many E2 folks do it and fly under the radar?

IBL

Care to elaborate on that?

IBL = In before lock

meaning that's a question the mods don't want to see answered and elaborated upon here.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: Re: 3 main reasons

Hatcher wrote:

Privates are illegal because Koreans want everyone to have an equal shot at the top unis. The rich can afford the top tutors so.... In fact, 60% of SNU students come from rich families.

The next one is taxes.

A major reason why 2nd jobs are not permitted is that KOreans dont like, most would say hate, it when foreigners here make a lot of money.

At my uni, the K profs all monitor how much the westerners make. I have heard lots of stories where westerners have had their salary decreased because they were making too much.

Sorry but the bolded part is complete garbage.

As for those "stories" of foreigners getting pay reductions, that sounds unlikely as well.

PastorYoon

Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:46 am Post subject: Re: 3 main reasons

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Hatcher wrote:

Sorry but the bolded part is complete garbage.

No, it's not. Koreans really envy foreigners, because they can earn easy money here. My co-workers threw in my face numerous times how I earn more than them, and hinted that I don't work as hard as them. I just told them that they are the ones who choose where and for how much they will work. There are plenty of miserable and jealous Koreans.

recessiontime

Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:36 am Post subject:

yeah it's illegal, don't question it, it just is in K-land. The interesting part is that we all know that every other person does it. I read a statistic long ago that said 30% of E2's are teaching illegally. That was a while ago, but I'm not going to bother finding it again, can't be bothered. Every E2 I kept in contact in while in Korea told me they did private lessons. The going rate was apparently 50000 won a lesson. Not bad at all. My K gf at the time told me about this other guy that lined up a bunch of privates and make 5m a month. It's funny how making privates illegal is what drives the price of lessons so high. Anyway, I'm sure the privates will come to you if you stay there long enough. peace

misher

Joined: 14 Oct 2008

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:04 am Post subject:

Quote:

Except that even E-2's are legally permitted to have a 2nd job so that argument doesn't hold water.

I may be wrong here but from my perspective working a second job and maximizing earning potential on an E-2 isn't that easy. First the job MUST BE PUBLIC. Speaking from personal experience lucrative private business English gigs or part-time boutique hagwon gigs are not allowed. Public after-school programs are really your only option and it is quite common for them to cheat on taxes and lie to immigration about their employee's contract details.

Also,

You may not work more hours than your first job or be paid more than your first job. As mentioned before many after-school programs will lie about this to immigration hence the shadiness.

My conclusion is that even IF your visa sponsor gives the green light to get another teaching job (mine does), the additional requirements on that second job very much limits your choices and earning potential. Why it is this way I have no idea. It is no skin off anyone's nose except for my employer. But if my employer doesn't give a hoot about where I get additional work, why does immigration have to restrict it so much? One conclusion that can be drawn is that the Korean government does not want foreigners here getting rich and booking out of the country. It would make sense and I actually agree with this approach but to try to deny that this type of thinking takes place (Patrick) by the state in a protectionist economy is ridiculous.

UrbanMyth I understand you are trying to counter some of the whiners here but it isn't as easy as getting permission from your employer and that is that. You are still limited a lot in terms of earning potential unless you or the people you work for at your second job break the law. And we ARE talking about doing everything legally here right?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject:

misher wrote:

Quote:

Except that even E-2's are legally permitted to have a 2nd job so that argument doesn't hold water.

Yes we are..but you are slightly misinformed. The second job only HAS to be public IF your primary job is a public school. If your PRIMARY job is a hakwon you can have a 2nd job at (a) another hakwon (b) an after-hours public school program (c) a company. I know this for a fact because back in my hakwon days I did both (a) and (c) and I know two people who do (b).

As for the reason why Immigration restricts it so much is that your visa is tied to your PRIMARY job. If your secondary job paid more or you worked more hours...well it wouldn't be your secondary job anymore then. Simple bureaucratic regulations. The majority of your hours and pay are expected to come from said primary job. The secondary job is supposed to be just that...secondary.

Of course we are discussing E-2's only here and not other visas such as the F-series.

misher

Joined: 14 Oct 2008

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Funny,

I've been rejected twice for private business English gigs for less hours and about the same pay.

Why is it so difficult for Korean immigration to allow me to work an additional 2-3 hours a day (I work 4 at my primary) and 50,000 KRW an hour? Why do they care if my "secondary job" pays more? I can see a point in the working hours because it would be a bit ridiculous to have a sponsor where you work 8 hours a week and then have a second job where you work 40. However, I don't quite understand the pay issue. It is no skin of anyone's nose. The income is reported and taxed. Please explain why immigration restricts this. I'm sorry but "simple bureaucratic regulations" does not explain anything and sounds like a cop out. I'm curious to know why these regulations are in place.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject:

misher wrote:

Quote:

Funny,

(1) I've been rejected twice for private business English gigs for less hours and about the same pay.

(2)Why is it so difficult for Korean immigration to allow me to work an additional 2-3 hours a day (I work 4 at my primary) and 50,000 KRW an hour? Why do they care if my "secondary job" pays more? I can see a point in the working hours because it would be a bit ridiculous to have a sponsor where you work 8 hours a week and then have a second job where you work 40. However, I don't quite understand the pay issue. It is no skin of anyone's nose. The income is reported and taxed. Please explain why immigration restricts this. I'm sorry but "simple bureaucratic regulations" does not explain anything and sounds like a cop out. I'm curious to know why these regulations are in place.

(numbered for easy reference)

(1) To the best of my knowledge (unless things have changed recently) your secondary job has to pay less. Hence the part I bolded...which might be the reason that Immigration rejected it.

(2) Because the majority of both hours and pay MUST come from your primary sponsor. If this was not so, people could swing a deal with their sponsor where they only work 15-20 hours a week and in exchange for a "cut" work at private business the rest of the time. This is problematic because Immigration likes to know where foreigners are in their country and if they need to contact you for any reason it's convenient for them to know where you will be the majority of the time.

Also it (in theory) prevents your sponsor from "farming" you out to teach lucrative business lessons. You teach them for 50,000/hour while he's making 30/hour or more for doing nothing except agreeing to let you work there with the administration at the other place. So it prevents exploitation (again in theory). Sure you could claim it's only for a few hours per day...but how do they KNOW for sure? As Immigration has said in the past they have limited manpower and can't go around checking up on every foreigner. It's just easier to avoid all that hassle by simply saying "No."

But it CAN and HAS been done...was the point of my post.

As to Koreans not liking foreigners making money...if that were true, then F-2's and F-5's would be restricted as well. But they aren't. And SOME (not all) but some make very good money. As I have said before I know 3 F-visa holders who have their own hakwons (and although they do work very hard) they are making excellent coin.

misher

Joined: 14 Oct 2008

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject:

Quote:

(1) To the best of my knowledge (unless things have changed recently) your secondary job has to pay less. Hence the part I bolded...which might be the reason that Immigration rejected it.

In both cases that wasn't the situation. I made sure that my second job stipulated in the contract that I was to make an hourly rate less than what I was paid at my primary hagwon. I really wanted thses jobs because it was only a couple of hours a day for an extra 2 million a month. The hours worked were less as at my normal job I work 4. I'm not saying I don't believe you about the people "you know." It just seems to be a little inconsistent. That is all. IMO I think immigration saw that my second job was "business English" which in their eyes means $$$$$$$ and rejected me. If it was Kim's Kindy after school program at a public school it probably would have been different because those programs are public, pay considerably less and require more working hours. This is only speculation however.

Quote:

Because the majority of both hours and pay MUST come from your primary sponsor. If this was not so, people could swing a deal with their sponsor where they only work 15-20 hours a week and in exchange for a "cut" work at private business the rest of the time. This is problematic because Immigration likes to know where foreigners are in their country and if they need to contact you for any reason it's convenient for them to know where you will be the majority of the time.

Again my issue is with the money made, not the hours worked. Therefore if I'm spending MORE hours at my primary job the point you raised of "immi liking to know where you are" is a red herring. Now if you are saying that the primary sponsor would lie to immi and not require you to work 15 hours a week at the primary location then you have a point. It is ILLEGAL to do so however and I think you are trying to claim that lifting the restriction would create some kind of loophole which I cannot see. Heck this kind of cheating could be done under the current system and it most likely is. Illegal is illegal though and I do not agree that lifting the pay restriction would create a more enticing situation to lie about contracts to immigration. If someone is going to cheat they will cheat anyways.

Quote:

Also it (in theory) prevents your sponsor from "farming" you out to teach lucrative business lessons. You teach them for 50,000/hour while he's making 30/hour or more for doing nothing except agreeing to let you work there with the administration at the other place. So it prevents exploitation (again in theory). Sure you could claim it's only for a few hours per day...but how do they KNOW for sure? As Immigration has said in the past they have limited manpower and can't go around checking up on every foreigner. It's just easier to avoid all that hassle by simply saying "No.

If your sponsor is "farming" you out to various locations then that is illegal anyways whether you can work a second job or not. You would still have to be in house at primary job one or secondary job two. Allowing the worker to make more but must work less hours wouldn't increase this phenomenon in my opinion. It already happens anyways although it is illegal. I know many guys that make trips to various conglomerates on E-2s making good money.

Quote:

Sure you could claim it's only for a few hours per day...but how do they KNOW for sure? As Immigration has said in the past they have limited manpower and can't go around checking up on every foreigner. It's just easier to avoid all that hassle by simply saying "No.

How do they know even with the current status quo? I know many people that work for after-school programs that lie about their pay and hours worked. This happens anyways. I am not convinced that this problem would be any worse if the pay restriction was lifted. The hours worked and where you must be in order to work I understand. The pay restriction I don't understand and your justification for the restrictions are weak in my opinion.

From what I see, Korea doesn't want foreigners coming to Korea, making 100s if thousands of dollars (could be done without the pay restriction by motivated individuals) over 3 or 4 years and then booking it out of the country. They see it as an exploitation of the demand and would prefer the money to stay in Korea. You apparently do not think this is the case but judging from the institutional practices of Korea regarding foreigners I think it wouldn't be that far fetched. I am by no means complaining about it. I for one agree with it. Korea has a history of foreigners coming in and exploiting so this continued mentality is justified in my opinion. The reason why I am continuing this discussion is because I don't understand why you would deny this.

Anyway,

I really don't see how if an E-2 works 2 jobs where the second job has less hours and both jobs are only done in house at their respective locations, that this would cause a huge problem. If you're claiming that this pay restriction exists out of altruism simply to protect the poor E-2 holder from "exploitation" and being forced to work at a second location (so the primary sponsor can get a "cut") I simply do not believe you.

Quote:

As to Koreans not liking foreigners making money...if that were true, then F-2's and F-5's would be restricted as well. But they aren't. And SOME (not all) but some make very good money. As I have said before I know 3 F-visa holders who have their own hakwons (and although they do work very hard) they are making excellent coin.

Discussing these things is always difficult because the F-series visa, which has no place in this discussion, always comes up.

F-2: You are married and it is implied that you are supporting a Korean spouse and family. The money made for the most part stays in the economy unless you are a married couple saving to get out of Korea. Most F-2s that I've met however, have children and their wives only work part time if at all. Yes you are still considered non min jok but are much more accepted into society here. Especially if children are involved and usually they are. Your taxes are also higher aren't they?

F-4: Benefits from your ethnic purity. No explanation needed.

F series visa holders are not considered migrant workers because of familial ties through marriage or blood.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject:

[quote="misher"]

Quote:

(
From what I see, Korea doesn't want foreigners coming to Korea, making 100s if thousands of dollars (could be done without the pay restriction by motivated individuals) over 3 or 4 years and then booking it out of the country. They see it as an exploitation of the demand and would prefer the money to stay in Korea. You apparently do not think this is the case but judging from the institutional practices of Korea regarding foreigners I think it wouldn't be that far fetched. I am by no means complaining about it. I for one agree with it. Korea has a history of foreigners coming in and exploiting so this continued mentality is justified in my opinion. The reason why I am continuing this discussion is because I don't understand why you would deny this.

.

Because it hasn't happened to me or other foreigners on an E-2 visa. And it hasn't happened to certain F-2 or F-5 visa holders. And we are all foreigners. If Koreans were really concerned about what foreigners make, we'd have stricter regulations. And no I am NOT arguing anything with regards to lifting of the pay restrictions. That's not my point at all.

But let's look at some figures. We agree that F-series visa holders are not under the same restrictions so let's restrict the argument to E-2 visa holders only (as they make up the main bulk of teachers after F-series are left out.)

At last count there was something like 30,000 E-2 visa holders (it was in another thread). The average salary is around 2 million won. Altogether that equates to about 60 billion won a year if my hasty calculations are correct.

According to the CIA world factbook South Korean GDP (at the official exchange rate) was $832.5 billion in 2009.

60 Billion WON isn't even 1% of that. In fact it's a tiny fraction of 1%. I really doubt they care about some minuscule .0001% or whatever fraction it is of their GDP going out of the country.

And there is NO official or unofficial policy in place confirming that Koreans don't want money being taken out of the country by foreigners. We are not the focus of Koreans' lives. You have speculation nothing more. The problem with this is one person speculates something and then another person hears it and repeats it. Pretty soon it becomes a solid belief, yet without solid evidence to back it up.

Oh and by the way...the pay restriction doesn't exist entirely out of altruism...E-2 visa holders are only allowed to work a set number of hours. Of course this is abused at times which is why I said IN THEORY.
But I suppose you could go argue with the Immigration officials who told me this information.

BTW who are these Koreans that don't want you taking money out of the country? Immigration, bank officials, the government...who? Because Immigration has no say over money you send home via wire transfer. A bank official is not likely to be able to tell the difference between a F-2 visa holder and an E-2 visa holders...it's likely not something they study over their morning kimchi. And the government has better things to do then find out who is an E-2 visa holder and who is an F-2 and then attempt to restrict transactions based on that.

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