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herenorthere56
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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 Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: Needing some guidance regarding placement agencies! |
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As someone very new to the idea of teaching abroad, I could use some advice! I am hoping to land a teaching job in Korea, and am likely going to start the application process by using a recruiting/placement agency (or perhaps a couple of them?). I've gathered that I should not be paying for these services, and should an agency ask me to pay, said agency is not worth using. (Right?)
That said, I've been looking at using Footprints, Reach to Teach, ESL Starter, or Teach Away. Has anyone used these agencies, and if so, would you recommend any of them? Why or why not? Are there any companies, listed above or otherwise, that I should avoid? I'd be grateful for any advice from those of you who have used any of these, or know of a placement agency worth checking out.
Briefly, about me:
-I have a bachelor's degree
-Native English speaker (USA)
-No prior teaching experience
-Am leaning towards teaching in a hogwan for my first year, but open to other opportunities
-I'm open to different parts of the country, but am leaning towards Busan, or Seoul
Thanks so much for reading, much appreciated! |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:52 am Post subject: |
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YOU NEVER PAY FOR RECRUITING
Also, you will usually NEVER pay for flights, unless you are the one changing plans somehow.
Include Gyeonggido in your list of places, it surrounds Seoul and I found it better than living directly in Seoul. However, if you are a party-goer then you may want somewhere near Itaewon or Hongdae in Seoul.
Avoid the eastern part of Korea. Daejeon, in the west, would only be ideal for someone who likes to travel. This way you could go to either equally, but you wouldn't be near either. With that said, transportation in Korea is the best I have seen. It's a zoo here in China and always overcrowded.
The main concern in Korea is simply time. You can go anywhere after a normal work schedule (say 5pm) and then travel, spend a 1.5 days somewhere and return. Flying is always another option. |
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herenorthere56
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks so much for the response. I'm wondering though if you, or anyone reading, has answers to my questions regarding placement agencies, which were in my original post. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jennyjo wrote: |
| Thanks so much for the response. I'm wondering though if you, or anyone reading, has answers to my questions regarding placement agencies, which were in my original post. |
Use as many as you need to find the job you want , with the benefits you want, in the area you want, at the time you want.
A recruiter is nothing more than an introduction to an employer.
Hello Mr. English speaker this is Mr Hakwon owner.
Mr. hakwon owner, this is Mr. English speaker.
Mr. English speaker, here is the contract. Please read and sign.
School, here is the signed contract. Pay me.
Good bye.
You are not paying them anything (or you shouldn't be).
THEY DO NOT WORK FOR YOU! - They work for the school.
They owe you nothing once you get here.
They are not your friend.
They are not your baby sitter.
They cannot help you if things go to *beep* after you get here.
Beyond that it is YOUR responsibility to check the school out.
Do NOT trust ANY recruiter. They are like used car salesmen. They will lie and sell their soul to get the signature on the contract.
Do your own DUE DILLIGENCE in regards to the school or get burned.
Use the recruiters for what they are. Use more than one and keep going until you get what you want. There is no rush and there is certainly no shortage of jobs.
When it comes to the school - again - repeat - Do your own DUE DILLIGENCE.
1st - READ the contract over very carefully. If that doesn't scare you away then...
The best you can do is minimize the risk by talking to MORE THAN ONE of the foreign staff and ask POINTED AND SPECIFIC QUESTIONS (*when the boss is NOT listening over their shoulder). Don't accept non-specific answers and broad generalizations.
No foreign staff references to talk to = walk away now.
Accept NO EXCUSES for any reason.
The hard questions to ask AND get acceptable answers to ARE:
-What are the hours? (start time / stop time / breaks).
-How many classes per day, week, month? NOT hour many hours per month. 30 classroom hours can mean anything from 1350 -1800 minutes per week standing in front of the class. The difference can be up to 7.5 HOURS in front of the class EACH WEEK.
-Do they ALWAYS pay on time? (no=red flag 1)
-Do they pay at the end of your month or do they have a hold back period (5-10 days after your month end) to prevent runners? (no=red flag 2)
-Do they really pay overtime or avoid it with creative book keeping? (no=red flag 3)
-Do you get credit for classes on the national holidays or do you get the day off but still have to work your 120 hours before you get overtime? (no=red flag 4)
-Do they have national medical (with the little booklet)? (no=red flag 5)
-Do they pay into pension? (no=red flag 6) These two are legal requirements (not optional) and are usually NOT complied with (to your detriment).
-What about the holidays? 10 or more WORKING days? (legal requirement here) (no=red flag 7)
-When and how do you get your holidays?
-What extra stuff do you really have to do - mentioned or not in the contract.
-Then consider the quality of life issues - things that are important to you that aren't mentioned here (housing, furnishings, THE BATHROOM, access to recreational facilities, shopping, banking).
Do they take additional deposits in addition to the delay in payday? (yes=red flag Cool
I would also like to mention for comparison:
My co-worker (at a public school) who is a green as grass, fresh off the boat newbie gets a base salary of 2.1 mil per month for 22 classes of 40 minutes each.
She gets 20k won for each 40 minute class over 22 per week and works from 8:30-4:30 each day. She usually averages 26 classes per week and her salary works out to about 2.5 mil per month.
She also gets (as required by law and ignored by most hakwons) NHIC medical, pension, severance, non-shared housing, airfare and 4 weeks annual PAID vacation.
Do NOT be in a rush to sign anything. There is NO rush or urgency in spite of what your recruiter may tell you.
Take your time. The job (or more likely a better one) will still be there next week and probably next month too.
There are 30,000 openings in Korea each year and only about 25,000 applicants to fill those jobs each year.
I hope that has been of some help.
.
6666[/quote] |
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twospoonsmv
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Jennyjo wrote: |
| Thanks so much for the response. I'm wondering though if you, or anyone reading, has answers to my questions regarding placement agencies, which were in my original post. |
Use as many as you need to find the job you want , with the benefits you want, in the area you want, at the time you want.
A recruiter is nothing more than an introduction to an employer.
Hello Mr. English speaker this is Mr Hakwon owner.
Mr. hakwon owner, this is Mr. English speaker.
Mr. English speaker, here is the contract. Please read and sign.
School, here is the signed contract. Pay me.
Good bye.
You are not paying them anything (or you shouldn't be).
THEY DO NOT WORK FOR YOU! - They work for the school.
They owe you nothing once you get here.
They are not your friend.
They are not your baby sitter.
They cannot help you if things go to *beep* after you get here.
Beyond that it is YOUR responsibility to check the school out.
Do NOT trust ANY recruiter. They are like used car salesmen. They will lie and sell their soul to get the signature on the contract.
Do your own DUE DILLIGENCE in regards to the school or get burned.
Use the recruiters for what they are. Use more than one and keep going until you get what you want. There is no rush and there is certainly no shortage of jobs.
When it comes to the school - again - repeat - Do your own DUE DILLIGENCE.
1st - READ the contract over very carefully. If that doesn't scare you away then...
The best you can do is minimize the risk by talking to MORE THAN ONE of the foreign staff and ask POINTED AND SPECIFIC QUESTIONS (*when the boss is NOT listening over their shoulder). Don't accept non-specific answers and broad generalizations.
No foreign staff references to talk to = walk away now.
Accept NO EXCUSES for any reason.
The hard questions to ask AND get acceptable answers to ARE:
-What are the hours? (start time / stop time / breaks).
-How many classes per day, week, month? NOT hour many hours per month. 30 classroom hours can mean anything from 1350 -1800 minutes per week standing in front of the class. The difference can be up to 7.5 HOURS in front of the class EACH WEEK.
-Do they ALWAYS pay on time? (no=red flag 1)
-Do they pay at the end of your month or do they have a hold back period (5-10 days after your month end) to prevent runners? (no=red flag 2)
-Do they really pay overtime or avoid it with creative book keeping? (no=red flag 3)
-Do you get credit for classes on the national holidays or do you get the day off but still have to work your 120 hours before you get overtime? (no=red flag 4)
-Do they have national medical (with the little booklet)? (no=red flag 5)
-Do they pay into pension? (no=red flag 6) These two are legal requirements (not optional) and are usually NOT complied with (to your detriment).
-What about the holidays? 10 or more WORKING days? (legal requirement here) (no=red flag 7)
-When and how do you get your holidays?
-What extra stuff do you really have to do - mentioned or not in the contract.
-Then consider the quality of life issues - things that are important to you that aren't mentioned here (housing, furnishings, THE BATHROOM, access to recreational facilities, shopping, banking).
Do they take additional deposits in addition to the delay in payday? (yes=red flag Cool
I would also like to mention for comparison:
My co-worker (at a public school) who is a green as grass, fresh off the boat newbie gets a base salary of 2.1 mil per month for 22 classes of 40 minutes each.
She gets 20k won for each 40 minute class over 22 per week and works from 8:30-4:30 each day. She usually averages 26 classes per week and her salary works out to about 2.5 mil per month.
She also gets (as required by law and ignored by most hakwons) NHIC medical, pension, severance, non-shared housing, airfare and 4 weeks annual PAID vacation.
Do NOT be in a rush to sign anything. There is NO rush or urgency in spite of what your recruiter may tell you.
Take your time. The job (or more likely a better one) will still be there next week and probably next month too.
There are 30,000 openings in Korea each year and only about 25,000 applicants to fill those jobs each year.
I hope that has been of some help.
.
6666 |
[/quote]
WOw, thanks for the information. It was really helpful for me to see a different perspective. All I keep hearing from recruiters is "hurry and get you paper work in because employers are becoming picky and there are not enough job to go around." |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi - the reason why recruiters say that is because schools want teachers right away, not because there are no jobs. A few years ago, schools would contact us (recruiters) several months in advance because they knew it was hard to get teachers. As a teacher, you could lock down a job with nothing more than a resume, and the visa process was mercifully short.
These days, schools know that there is an increased supply of teachers. They know that they can start looking for teachers a month in advance because they know there are plenty of teachers with complete documents. We don't often get situations where they hire the teacher at step 1 of the visa process because it takes weeks to get everything in order.
So - we're not saying get your documents together because there are no jobs. We're saying get your documents together so that when an opportunity knocks, you're ready to take advantage of it.
- Will at Footprints |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Are there any companies, listed above or otherwise, that I should avoid? |
I would avoid Footprints. Putting negative experiences aside, my understanding is that they now have a policy on only recruiting Footprints teachers for jobs in Japan. Maybe they have changed, but until they stop that (if they haven't already) I encourage all to make it their policy to not take jobs through them. You will only be supporting their "unequal opportunity" ways if you do.
This is what I received from them in March of 2010:
"Unfortunately, all current opportunities in Japan are now reserved for Footprints Alumni." - [email protected]
"We apologize for this change and hope this does not deter you from exploring other opportunities with us."
It has.
"If things change with our Japan opportunities, we will be sure to let you know."
So far, I haven't heard anything to indicate things have changed. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Are there any companies, listed above or otherwise, that I should avoid? |
I would avoid Footprints. Putting negative experiences aside, my understanding is that they now have a policy on only recruiting Footprints teachers for jobs in Japan. Maybe they have changed, but until they stop that (if they haven't already) I encourage all to make it their policy to not take jobs through them. You will only be supporting their "unequal opportunity" ways if you do.
This is what I received from them in March of 2010:
"Unfortunately, all current opportunities in Japan are now reserved for Footprints Alumni." - [email protected]
"We apologize for this change and hope this does not deter you from exploring other opportunities with us."
It has.
"If things change with our Japan opportunities, we will be sure to let you know."
So far, I haven't heard anything to indicate things have changed. |
Hey - I think I've explained this point in another forum on Dave's, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
In a nutshell, there are differences in the ESL industry in South Korea and in Japan that make it very difficult for independant agencies such as us to place teachers in Japan. It has to do with a visa process that allows the teacher much more freedom in Japan, resulting in schools not paying for airfare and housing often, as well as not wanting to work with third party recruitment agencies very often.
This is why we don't often work with positions in Japan.
Now, we do have contacts in Japan, so from time to time we have a job or two there. These positions are limited, so what we do is we set them aside for teachers who have gone through us and represented us well abroad already.
It isn't because we don't like you, and it isn't like we are saying you are not qualified to teach in Japan. Nor are we saying that the only way to teach in Japan is through Footprints.
We just can't process hundreds of applications for 3 jobs. Think of the hours that would go into screening 100 people for 3 jobs, and helping them with the visa process. It doesn't make business sense. Further, by limiting these options, we also reward the people who have gone through Footprints in the past.
Now, at the moment we are accepting applications for Japan. From what we understand, there will be a large volume of positions, so we'd be happy to help you out, if you're willing.
When this particular hiring comes to an end, and we go back to having a small handful of jobs in Japan, then we'll limit them to the teachers that have represented us in the past, or who have recently completed a contract and want to try a new country. If we are unable to fill those positions with Footprints Alumni, we'll open them up to all applicants.
So that's it - nothing personal.
As to the OP's original question...pick a few recruiters to start with, and decide who you feel comfortable working with and who is going to get you the best job. Most schools work with multiple recruiters, so you'll find that you will see the same postings on different sites. There isn't much difference in the jobs, from recruitment agency to another, so if you want to pick an agency, just go with who you feel is doing the best job for you. There's no single answer to this. Some people like diet coke, some like coke, pepsi or one of those weird coke zeros. To each their own right?
-Will |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: Found it! |
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I knew I wrote about this before! I think it might have been a response to lifeinkorea at the time (March 2010), if I'm not mistaken.
This was before we had the current agreement for positions in Japan, for which we are now accepting applications - from everyone, just to be clear.
But I think I may have explained in more detail before.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=179357&highlight=Footprints
Like I said before, if you have any questions about this, or anything else, you can reach me at [email protected]. 9ish to 5ish, Monday to Friday. Or PM me here on Dave's.
-Will at Footprints |
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