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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| It certainly isn't impossible. 2-3 hours is adequate time to formulate and write a short (3-4 page) essay with in-depth analysis. |
A 3-4 page essay is nothing. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about; you can memorize 3-4 pages of essay points and come in and scribble them out quickly, and in many cases, that's virtually what you're expected to do: summarize the talking points you've memorized from the lecture to show you were listening.
3 pages of writing is a casual, citation-less summary of an idea, not an in-depth analysis.
Last edited by Fox on Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| It certainly isn't impossible. 2-3 hours is adequate time to formulate and write a short (3-4 page) essay with in-depth analysis. |
A 3-4 page essay is nothing. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about; you can memorize 3-4 pages of essay points and come in and scribble them out quickly, and in many cases, that's virtually what you're expected to do: summarize the talking points you've memorized from the lecture to show you were listening.
3 pages of writing is a casual summary of an idea, not an in-depth analysis. |
It can be if you're a good writer.
Either way, it proves that you are the one taking the exam. You still need to be able to write. Distance exams can be faked far more easily. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| It certainly isn't impossible. 2-3 hours is adequate time to formulate and write a short (3-4 page) essay with in-depth analysis. |
A 3-4 page essay is nothing. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about; you can memorize 3-4 pages of essay points and come in and scribble them out quickly, and in many cases, that's virtually what you're expected to do: summarize the talking points you've memorized from the lecture to show you were listening.
3 pages of writing is a casual summary of an idea, not an in-depth analysis. |
It can be if you're a good writer.
Either way, it proves that you are the one taking the exam. You still need to be able to write. Distance exams can be faked far more easily. |
When I took my exams for my distance degree in Taipei at the Pearson VUE center, they:
1. Made me present both a passport and ARC to prove my identity.
2. Scanned the veins in my palms using a special biometric scanner (both before and after I entered the testing room -- just in case).
3. Had me under constant camera surveillance using six different cameras, all set at different angles.
Did they do the same to you at brick and mortar uni? |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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That is not the same kind of distance learning that I'm talking about. You left the comfort of your home, so I don't consider that on the same level as many of the advertised online unis.
We had to hand in our state ID cards at the start of our exams, and there were cameras for the larger classes (and multiple proctors walking around in all classes), but we didn't have hand scans. That's pretty nifty. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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OP,
My first job was at Wonderland, and I had a very good experience, but if you look on the boards, you will see that everyone tells you not to work at Wonderland...and despite my own positive experience, they are right -- the majority of people's experiences with that chain school have been negative, and so the best advice would be following the rule and not expecting an exception.
I'm glad you are having a good experience. You took a chance against solid advice, and it is working out for you -- that is just luck for you, unfortunately. I'm glad you got lucky, but backing a 10-to-1 shot and then coming here to say "in your face!" shows that you do not realize how lucky you were.
Perhaps when you are done with TaLK, you can get a job at Wonderland and do it again -- come here and say, "everyone on the forum that told me not to do Wonderland, you were wrong. That is all, carry on!"
Sincerely, I am glad you are having a good experience, but what advice should someone give if they think the negatives outweigh the positives? ...and why would you mock/spurn folks that are trying to give you good advice? I hope those online classes you are taking teach you bunches, because you certainly have a lot to learn.... |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
OP,
My first job was at Wonderland, and I had a very good experience, but if you look on the boards, you will see that everyone tells you not to work at Wonderland...and despite my own positive experience, they are right -- the majority of people's experiences with that chain school have been negative, and so the best advice would be following the rule and not expecting an exception.
I'm glad you are having a good experience. You took a chance against solid advice, and it is working out for you -- that is just luck for you, unfortunately. I'm glad you got lucky, but backing a 10-to-1 shot and then coming here to say "in your face!" shows that you do not realize how lucky you were.
Perhaps when you are done with TaLK, you can get a job at Wonderland and do it again -- come here and say, "everyone on the forum that told me not to do Wonderland, you were wrong. That is all, carry on!"
Sincerely, I am glad you are having a good experience, but what advice should someone give if they think the negatives outweigh the positives? ...and why would you mock/spurn folks that are trying to give you good advice? I hope those online classes you are taking teach you bunches, because you certainly have a lot to learn.... |
I was under the impression that people only knocked TaLK because it accepted AAs and because the pay was 1.5 million a month.
However, when you really look at it, the pay per teaching hour is pretty incredible. Most people work what, 25 or 30 teaching hours and get 2.3 million won a month? And TaLK program participants work only 50% of those hours, yet get 65% in terms of monthly pay. Seems like they're doing better on a per-hour basis than many hagwon teachers...
Average hagwon teacher: 2,300,000 won per month / 120 hours per month = 19,167 won per hour
TaLK program intern: 1,500,000 won per month / 60 hours per month = 25,000 won per hour
Is there some other problem with TaLK of which I'm not aware?
Even if the average hagwon teacher only does 25 teaching hours a week, it seems like the TaLK intern is still getting slightly higher pay per hour. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Even writing an essay can be faked with a distance course, though. One can always pay someone to write their exam final. You can't do that when you have to sit in the class and write an essay. |
Really? Given that you tend to have external people invigilating in exams at university (well, this is the case at most universities in the UK), I'd say it's no more or less likely than it is via distance learning as neither sets of invigilators could tell you from Adam. I recently sat some exams for a second degree I'm doing via the University of London's external program. I had to show two pieces of ID plus my matriculation card. I only had to show a matriculation card when I sat my exams when I did my first degree (brick and mortar). It seemed to me in comparing the two that the distance learning degree was more vigorous in making me prove who I was before sitting exams. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| That is not the same kind of distance learning that I'm talking about. You left the comfort of your home, so I don't consider that on the same level as many of the advertised online unis. |
If that's the case, distance learning and online learning don't have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps you should be a bit more careful next time before posting? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
[q
Many of the other Dave's ESL Cafe posters wanted me to move back to Virginia and flip burgers at McDonald's or Burger King or clean toilets. They didn't want me to compete with them for jobs. I said "no, I refuse." I used my AA+CELTA to compete with them, and yes, there were times when I probably did beat someone with a BA out of a job. Too bad. I was the better job candidate.
" |
Good for you. Unfortunately I have to disabuse you of one thing.
It is very very unlikely that you were competing against anyone with a B.A as they could get a P.S job under the regular system as opposed to TALK.
The TALK program is NOT the same as the regular one. The HOURS, PAY and QUALIFICATIONS are all different.
So pat yourself on the back all you want...but you weren't competing with the majority of us who have B.A's for a job. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| That is not the same kind of distance learning that I'm talking about. You left the comfort of your home, so I don't consider that on the same level as many of the advertised online unis. |
If that's the case, distance learning and online learning don't have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps you should be a bit more careful next time before posting? |
Good point.
I have a degree that is, in theory, a "distance degree," but I had to take almost all my exams with a proctor at a brick-and-mortar school, at very least, and a Pearson VUE center with biometric scanning and multiple surveillance cameras, at most.
If I do 90%+ of my credits through brick-and-mortar testing centers, is that a brick-and-mortar degree or a distance degree? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
OP,
My first job was at Wonderland, and I had a very good experience, but if you look on the boards, you will see that everyone tells you not to work at Wonderland...and despite my own positive experience, they are right -- the majority of people's experiences with that chain school have been negative, and so the best advice would be following the rule and not expecting an exception.
I'm glad you are having a good experience. You took a chance against solid advice, and it is working out for you -- that is just luck for you, unfortunately. I'm glad you got lucky, but backing a 10-to-1 shot and then coming here to say "in your face!" shows that you do not realize how lucky you were.
Perhaps when you are done with TaLK, you can get a job at Wonderland and do it again -- come here and say, "everyone on the forum that told me not to do Wonderland, you were wrong. That is all, carry on!"
Sincerely, I am glad you are having a good experience, but what advice should someone give if they think the negatives outweigh the positives? ...and why would you mock/spurn folks that are trying to give you good advice? I hope those online classes you are taking teach you bunches, because you certainly have a lot to learn.... |
I was under the impression that people only knocked TaLK because it accepted AAs and because the pay was 1.5 million a month.
However, when you really look at it, the pay per teaching hour is pretty incredible. Most people work what, 25 or 30 teaching hours and get 2.3 million won a month? And TaLK program participants work only 50% of those hours, yet get 65% in terms of monthly pay. Seems like they're doing better on a per-hour basis than many hagwon teachers...
Average hagwon teacher: 2,300,000 won per month / 120 hours per month = 19,167 won per hour
TaLK program intern: 1,500,000 won per month / 60 hours per month = 25,000 won per hour
Is there some other problem with TaLK of which I'm not aware?
Even if the average hagwon teacher only does 25 teaching hours a week, it seems like the TaLK intern is still getting slightly higher pay per hour. |
Pay per hour is a strawman though in some cases like the above.
Let's say you're given a choice You can work 1 hour for 10 dollars
Or 10 hours for 5 dollars an hour. In the first instance you are getting double the hourly wage of the second. But at the end of the day he is getting QUINTUPLE the daily wage you are.
I think most people would pick the second option. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
[q
Many of the other Dave's ESL Cafe posters wanted me to move back to Virginia and flip burgers at McDonald's or Burger King or clean toilets. They didn't want me to compete with them for jobs. I said "no, I refuse." I used my AA+CELTA to compete with them, and yes, there were times when I probably did beat someone with a BA out of a job. Too bad. I was the better job candidate.
" |
Good for you. Unfortunately I have to disabuse you of one thing.
It is very very unlikely that you were competing against anyone with a B.A as they could get a P.S job under the regular system as opposed to TALK.
The TALK program is NOT the same as the regular one. The HOURS, PAY and QUALIFICATIONS are all different.
So pat yourself on the back all you want...but you weren't competing with the majority of us who have B.A's for a job. |
True, the HOURS, the PAY, and the QUALIFICATIONS are different!
The hours are shorter!
The pay per hour is higher!
The qualifications are lower!
Pisses some people off, doesn't it?
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Pay per hour is a strawman though in some cases like the above.
Let's say you're given a choice You can work 1 hour for 10 dollars
Or 10 hours for 5 dollars an hour. In the first instance you are getting double the hourly wage of the second. But at the end of the day he is getting QUINTUPLE the daily wage you are.
I think most people would pick the second option. |
And this is also a straw man.
TaLK monthly pay is 65% of what an average hagwon teacher gets. It is not a factor of five like in your straw man example.
----
TaLK seems like a valid option for someone who values his or her free time.
Last edited by rooster_2006 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tottenhamtaipeinick
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I never understood the scorn so many people express about distance education. Is a lecture less informative if you read it instead of sitting in class listening to it? I don't think so. Is an essay somehow less demonstrative of knowledge if it is emailed to your professor instead of handed to them? I don't see how. Are discussion sections less valuable if carried out by post? If anything, I think they both allow for and encourage more interaction, since they aren't limited by time, and even shy speakers can easily express themselves.
The only real potential weak point I see in distance education is that closed-book testing isn't really feasible, but closed-book testing is the sign of a comparatively weak course that relies on memorization to be challenging. Real tests utilize questions which remain challenging even when the source material is laid out before you.
I'm sure a lot of distance learning institutions are just "degree mills", but to be honest, so are a lot of institutions which require one's presence. It's the institution, it's teaching staff, and what you walk away learning that matters in my mind, not your physical presence. Then again, I don't derive my self-worth from belittling others, so it's easy for me to take a relaxed stance on the issue.
Glad TALK has worked out for you, original poster. |
Even writing an essay can be faked with a distance course, though. One can always pay someone to write their exam final. You can't do that when you have to sit in the class and write an essay.
Perhaps the OP should use some of that 900,000 a month for a class on manners. |
I did law subjects and design subjects in Taiwan and I wish I didn't. I got approval from my Head of School and had to do video presentations etc. I had no body to collaborate with when doing assignments etc and I was depressed every time I ran into difficulties because I was alone. One project was to design an airport link to the city centre and was a collaboration with engineers, planners and architects and that I COULD NOT DO overseas for obvious reasons which I came back to Australia for 3mths to complete the project. But many Universities allow you to take some subjects while away or overseas but you may need to finish up some when you go back home. Sure you learn a lot but all you are doing is reading a book and not using it in class tutorials etc and skills you need for the work force are not gained from distance ed. These skills are a must for people who are only just completing their first degrees as they have little or no prior in depth prior workforce skills in that industry |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Even writing an essay can be faked with a distance course, though. One can always pay someone to write their exam final. You can't do that when you have to sit in the class and write an essay. |
Really? Given that you tend to have external people invigilating in exams at university (well, this is the case at most universities in the UK), I'd say it's no more or less likely than it is via distance learning as neither sets of invigilators could tell you from Adam. I recently sat some exams for a second degree I'm doing via the University of London's external program. I had to show two pieces of ID plus my matriculation card. I only had to show a matriculation card when I sat my exams when I did my first degree (brick and mortar). It seemed to me in comparing the two that the distance learning degree was more vigorous in making me prove who I was before sitting exams. |
I had to turn in my state ID before I sat for each exam. I got it back after handing in my paper. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| tottenhamtaipeinick wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I never understood the scorn so many people express about distance education. Is a lecture less informative if you read it instead of sitting in class listening to it? I don't think so. Is an essay somehow less demonstrative of knowledge if it is emailed to your professor instead of handed to them? I don't see how. Are discussion sections less valuable if carried out by post? If anything, I think they both allow for and encourage more interaction, since they aren't limited by time, and even shy speakers can easily express themselves.
The only real potential weak point I see in distance education is that closed-book testing isn't really feasible, but closed-book testing is the sign of a comparatively weak course that relies on memorization to be challenging. Real tests utilize questions which remain challenging even when the source material is laid out before you.
I'm sure a lot of distance learning institutions are just "degree mills", but to be honest, so are a lot of institutions which require one's presence. It's the institution, it's teaching staff, and what you walk away learning that matters in my mind, not your physical presence. Then again, I don't derive my self-worth from belittling others, so it's easy for me to take a relaxed stance on the issue.
Glad TALK has worked out for you, original poster. |
Even writing an essay can be faked with a distance course, though. One can always pay someone to write their exam final. You can't do that when you have to sit in the class and write an essay.
Perhaps the OP should use some of that 900,000 a month for a class on manners. |
I did law subjects and design subjects in Taiwan and I wish I didn't. I got approval from my Head of School and had to do video presentations etc. I had no body to collaborate with when doing assignments etc and I was depressed every time I ran into difficulties because I was alone. One project was to design an airport link to the city centre and was a collaboration with engineers, planners and architects and that I COULD NOT DO overseas for obvious reasons which I came back to Australia for 3mths to complete the project. But many Universities allow you to take some subjects while away or overseas but you may need to finish up some when you go back home. Sure you learn a lot but all you are doing is reading a book and not using it in class tutorials etc and skills you need for the work force are not gained from distance ed. These skills are a must for people who are only just completing their first degrees as they have little or no prior in depth prior workforce skills in that industry |
You are correct that some skills can only be gained by brick-and-mortar in an effective manner. That is correct. I would not like to have a doctor who had an MD from University of Phoenix Online, for example.
However, for majors like liberal arts, history, English, etc. I fail to see how distance education is inferior, since those degrees are mostly just composed of reading books and writing papers, anyway. |
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