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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
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| Go get your money, and even better, ask someone at Seoul Global rather than listening to moronic rants on this board. |
I have learned over the years that it is much better to use that time instead of demanding the money docked.
Let's say you have 5 sick days in your contract. If I were to use them, I would simply call the night before. If that is what is supported in the contract, I would get my 5 days, PLUS I would have these days off I used for surgery. I would go for the 6th or 7th "sick day", bite the bullet, let them dock my pay for the surgery days, etc... and enjoy life.
By being a dick and fighting for pay for surgery you chose, the school is not going to see this good for them and are likely to make up excuses to fire. The end result is you don't have a job and you are spending more time trying to get a second one. It's a petty amount in the grand scheme of things.
However, if you want to win on your morals and stand alone, fight them. Good luck either way.
Airfare back to the states is about 1 million won and higher. Is it worth it? |
LifeinKorea, I think you offer an excellent POV for the sick-day abusers out there, but I don't think it applies in this case.
First of all, as you stated previously, we do get a certain amount of sick days in our contract. These sick days are already there, and do not accrue "once every 5 months." In places where they do accrue (as in my last job in the States), it is one every 6 weeks or something. Obviously, it would be an abuse to use a sick day once every month or every 6 weeks, which is why they accrue and are there when you really do need them.
Just about every employer I've ever had - and I've had a few, including professional jobs - allows employees to use sick time for doctor's appointments and such. In fact, BY LAW, they must allow you time off within reason to take care of normal, routine, human health issues.
This OP was within reasonable boundaries, and did what almost every reasonable employer appreciates: advance notice, and he arranged it when there would be minimal impact to his job.
Only a scrouge or a petty, corrupt, mean-spirited employer would try to dock him, which might possibly and hopefully be illegal.
*edit
http://law.onecle.com/california/labor/233.html
Cal. Labor Code � 233
CA Codes (lab:200-243)
This law defines sick leave thus:
"Sick leave" means accrued increments of compensated leave
provided by an employer to an employee as a benefit of the employment
for use by the employee during an absence from the employment for
any of the following reasons:
(A) The employee is physically or mentally unable to perform his
or her duties due to illness, injury, or a medical condition of the
employee.
(B) The absence is for the purpose of obtaining professional
diagnosis or treatment for a medical condition of the employee.
(C) The absence is for other medical reasons of the employee, such
as pregnancy or obtaining a physical examination." |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| In fact, BY LAW, they must allow you time off within reason to take care of normal, routine, human health issues. |
He was allowed. He hasn't stated the school fired him.
I am not claiming Park English is the law, but if it does state you can take sick days and legally fight to be paid for it, then chime in. Please show the law. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
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| In fact, BY LAW, they must allow you time off within reason to take care of normal, routine, human health issues. |
He was allowed. He hasn't stated the school fired him.
I am not claiming Park English is the law, but if it does state you can take sick days and legally fight to be paid for it, then chime in. Please show the law. |
I just did show you an example of law, in the case of California's Labor Sick-leave Law, Section 233. It very clearly DOES allow for pre-arranged doctor's appointments to fall under paid sick leave.
Further, your own link from Park English - in which you are correct to state, isn't law - states that you will not be docked if you can present an official letter from a doctor. Perhaps that's all the OP needs to do.
As far as showing you "the law" in Korea, good luck with that one. Did you know that according to "the law" prostitution is illegal? Also, many of us have "lawfully" drawn up contracts that seem to change on the very extralegal or unregulated whims of the owners and bosses.
I think from a legal standpoint here, the OP should be able to provide a doctor's note. I also think he should talk to the Seoul Global Center. If that's good enough for them ... |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I just did show you an example of law, in the case of California's Labor Sick-leave Law, Section 233. |
California??? 
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| if you can present an official letter from a doctor |
The original poster never stated they had such a note. They simply said arrangements were made to allow for a day off.
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| So this past thursday I had some dental surgery (gum grafting done) |
"A gingival graft (also called gum graft or periodontal plastic surgery) is a generic name for any of a number of surgical periodontal procedures whose combined aim is to cover an area of exposed tooth root surface with grafted oral tissue. " - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingival_graft
Nothing sounds like the person was sick.
This was voluntary surgery they didn't need. They were not in any pain or discomfort until AFTER the surgery.
If we pay for other people's negligence in taking care of their gums, then should we also pay for a smoker's lung problems and give a drunk another liver? I am sure there are plenty of weak livers in Korea. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well yeah, I showed you California law to contradict the assumptions and statements in your first post on this thread. We can consider that done.
However, your point about the prearranged dental procedure is a subjective one. The procedure that the OP had done can easily be for discomfort and tooth sensitivity, which is most often the case. At any rate, he did receive permission for it, he did have what is considered a medical dental procedure done, after waiting to be well into his second year, and he did show consideration for their work schedule.
Bottom line: the Hagwon are a bunch of money-grubbing bruts, and should be challenged on it. Go get a doctor's note and talk to Seoul Global about recovering your money, OP. The sick-day leave harassment in this Country is absolutely backwards and medieval, full stop. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Well yeah, I showed you California law to contradict the assumptions and statements in your first post on this thread. We can consider that done. |
As shocking as this may seem, I wasn't referring to California 
In Korea, but referencing California law. Alrighty then. I sure hope they don't impose Sharia law 
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| The procedure that the OP had done can easily be for discomfort and tooth sensitivity, which is most often the case. |
Yea, it's interesting how our gums recede during working hours, and during the holidays and vacation time we don't feel tooth sensitivity. Reminds me of Ferris Bueller.
I am all for calling a spade a spade, but in this case the facts of the case just don't support anything but a desire to get something done on someone else's dime.
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| after waiting to be well into his second year |
If he is into his second year, it should be easy to arrange a day off with the owner without it being for surgery or sickness. It's not that hard to do. The poster is moaning about 200,000 won. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
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| Well yeah, I showed you California law to contradict the assumptions and statements in your first post on this thread. We can consider that done. |
As shocking as this may seem, I wasn't referring to California
In Korea, but referencing California law. Alrighty then. I sure hope they don't impose Sharia law
I hope so too, but Korean sick-day leave is somewhat Sharia, don't you think ... we give you sick days in the contract, but 30 lashes, a stoning, dirty looks and possible docked pay if you take them, lol.
Anyway, no you weren't talking about California per se, but you were talking very generally about taking sick days for medical procedures, and I simply showed you that there are in fact norms for that, codified by law in most developed legal and contractual frameworks.
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| The procedure that the OP had done can easily be for discomfort and tooth sensitivity, which is most often the case. |
Yea, it's interesting how our gums recede during working hours, and during the holidays and vacation time we don't feel tooth sensitivity. Reminds me of Ferris Bueller.
I am all for calling a spade a spade, but in this case the facts of the case just don't support anything but a desire to get something done on someone else's dime.
This is why I referenced California law. It is subjective and backwards to view all employee benefits and reasonable need for leave simply as time on "someone else's dime." There are norms in place that should prevent us from merely being somene else's indentured servant or peasant. That's called a modern legal and labor law system And theoretically, that's why we have contracts and sick leave. Most of us don't have personal days in our contracts, so of course sick leave should be applicable for health-related, medical LEAVE, hence the term "sick-leave" in most modern labor law definitions.
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| after waiting to be well into his second year |
If he is into his second year, it should be easy to arrange a day off with the owner without it being for surgery or sickness. It's not that hard to do. The poster is moaning about 200,000 won. |
Uhm, I think that is exactly what the OP just tried to do, and was docked for it. We can easily turn this around and say that the Hagwon owner is moaning and worse, by docking a good employee for a medical procedure fpr which he prearranged and received permission.
It is unfortunate that the backward attitudes toward employment and entitlements here outright force people to be total jerks: i.e. don't tell them and just call in sick and do what you want to do anyway. You will be within the law, and they can be left to scramble.
Anyway, done here. Stay healthy Lifer. Here's hoping all of your prearranged medical procedures only occur during your vacations and personal time off
edit
Last edited by calicoe on Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| double post. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope so too, but Korean sick-day leave is somewhat Sharia, don't you think ... we give you sick days in the contract, but 30 lashes, a stoning, dirty looks and possible docked pay if you take them, lol. |
He wasn't sick though. He arranged to have surgery. This falls under medical insurance issues. When that happens, my understanding is that employees can't get benefits until they work a certain number of months.
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| We can easily turn this around and say that the Hagwon owner is moaning and worse |
There is one owner, but several teachers. If 5 do the same, then the hagwon owner is out 1 million won. The more we make claims for 200,000 here, 200,000 there, the worse it is for teachers all around.
Let's use our sick days, but use them WISELY. If you are sick, use them and push it. If you are getting voluntary surgery, then don't push it. That's all I am saying.
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| Here's hoping all of your prearranged medical procedures only occur during your vacations and personal time off |
Well, things like this don't happen over night. It's a gradual process over time going from good to worse. It's not like a heart attack or leg injury which might happen on a work day or on a day off (vacation or not).
"Here's hoping all of your prearranged medical procedures", when you NEED it, are available with the funds to make it happen. |
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steve416
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Location: hongdae
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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liveinkorea, I understand you don't think the procedure was an appropriate reason to take a sick day. That wasnt what I was talking about in my original question at all.
I ASKED AHEAD OF TIME IF IT WAS OKAY TO HAVE THE TIME OFF AND USE SICK DAYS FOR MY ABSENCE AND MY EMPLOYER AGREED.
My contract is close to completion so Im not too worried about getting sick before it finishes if I do and can't work then I would not complain about not having sick days.
I think I approached the the situation like an adult and a decent employee if the hagwon thought my request was inappropriate they could have told me....they didnt, they approved the request.
my pay indicates otherwise, this is not a moral or legal question I was asking how to best deal with my hagwon to get what I want?
you have offered nothing other than telling me not to try to get what I want (your one valid opinion).
Please go back and read my posts from the start of the thread and your responses its clear that your either not reading what I've written or maybe Im incredibly inept at getting my point across to you though every other poster on this thread seems to understand me. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| My contract is close to completion so Im not too worried about getting sick before it finishes if I do and can't work then I would not complain about not having sick days. |
So you are going to gamble and cause tension between you and your employer over 200,000 won? Remember, you have the final month's pay, severance, a flight home, and pension which comes to a lot more (I am guessing over 6 million).
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| they approved the request |
They approved paying you or approved giving you time off without firing you?
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| every other poster on this thread seems to understand me. |
OH I DO UNDERSTAND YOU, I DO I DO I DO. Let's see:
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| I was asking how to best deal with my hagwon to get what I want? |
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| you have offered nothing other than telling me not to try to get what I want |
I am sorry I am not saying things you want me to say. Maybe you should re-evaluate what you want and see if you really deserve it. If you fight for 200,000 you might end up losing a lot more.
For your sake, I sure hope you don't take the remaining won you do have and go to a casino. You won't know when to stop. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
| If we pay for other people's negligence in taking care of their gums, then should we also pay for a smoker's lung problems and give a drunk another liver? I am sure there are plenty of weak livers in Korea. |
Seriously? Everyone does unhealthy things that put their life at risk. It's a ridiculously slippery slope to cover some of them and not others. |
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steve416
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Location: hongdae
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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They agreed to let me use sick days ie to give me time off without lost pay (this is what a sick day or sick leave is defined as in my contract). This has been written several times by me.
I don't mind you disagreeing with me but I still don't feel like you've been reading the thread very carefully. Not trying to insult you have just misquoted things out of context and generally not made sense a couple times. Implying you're not reading carefully is the nicer assumption to make on my part.
I'll tell you what Ill go talk to my supervisor tmmrw and tell you what happens. If I get fired Ill post it in this thread if I get the money Ill post it if I dont get fired or get my money Ill post it. (You might have to wait a day or two for this)
I dont intend to go in guns blazing and piss people off at my job I wanted help in figuring out the best way to deal with the issue. (the most diplomatic way).
Im not sure how things will do down but if I get my cash does that mean you eat your words? or should I update the thread when I finish my contract in 4 months? To show you that I wasn't fired? |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| I'll tell you what Ill go talk to my supervisor tmmrw and tell you what happens. If I get fired Ill post it in this thread if I get the money Ill post it if I dont get fired or get my money Ill post it. (You might have to wait a day or two for this) |
Now we are making progress.
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| I dont intend to go in guns blazing and piss people off at my job I wanted help in figuring out the best way to deal with the issue. (the most diplomatic way). |
Just to repeat what I stated before, but within other issues, 200,000 won disagreements can often be dealt with without needing contract citings or using the law. For example, I worked for GEPIK and the first head English teacher agreed to give me overtime. One day, 2 classes were cancelled, and the second head English teacher who replaced the first one didn't know the agreements that I made with the first head English teacher. So, she held overtime pay. I mentioned that I still went to school and if I wasn't going to be paid for those hours, they should have told me to come in later that day. They added the money on to my next pay. This was just a matter of clearing up what a previous agreement was.
Other incidents involved other teachers who took time off, didn't get paid, but they didn't whine to the school. They did however have every right to try to get overtime pay held from them for stupid reasons.
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| Im not sure how things will do down but if I get my cash does that mean you eat your words? or should I update the thread when I finish my contract in 4 months? To show you that I wasn't fired? |
I don't know your situation. After the GEPIK job, I went to Incheon. This was an afterschool program but not run by the public school. So, instead of a head English teacher I dealt with a manager of an organization. The first one left after 2 months. The 2nd and 3rd managers replaced her as part-time workers. They upheld agreements I made with the 1st manager.
However, when the 4th manager replaced them it was obvious after talking to her I didn't want to continue dealing with the organization. In my case, it wasn't dental work. It was about a lousy 2,000 won transportation cost they wanted me to pay for which was the final straw.
The first manager promised transportation to be paid for, but I only got 100,000 won a month. This didn't cover all the costs as I was commuting 1.5 hours and paying for 2 trains. However, the salary and work hours (1-4pm some days) made it a reasonable offer at the time. So as the job was I liked it. When the 4th manager told me to go basically into Seoul from Incheon and not get overtime or transportation costs I asked other teachers their opinion. This infuriated her and the recruiter told me the organization wanted me to leave. A bit of a win win situation though. There's more, but the point of this is that things can go sour fast if you argue over little matters.
At the school I am at now, we have an understanding that we can basically all do what we want and when we want, just work it out with the other teachers. The common understanding is no work no pay. One teacher had to take his son to the US and I haven't seen him since September. He is supposedly back in the country and might show up tomorrow.
It's probably a preference thing. I would rather know I have a job than argue that even though I didn't teach I should still get paid.
You got your surgery, no complications seem to have come up. At a 200,000 won loss I would say it was worth it. Move on.
As for the school paying you after you talk to them, it's either a misunderstanding with the owner and the people that pay you, or they actually aren't as bad as others have claimed them to be because honestly I don't think you are owed it. You didn't work, you weren't sick, you were able to get your surgery done, and they were able to save a little money. |
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nomad-ish
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Location: On the bottom of the food chain
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think there's anything the OP can do, although i do agree that if he discussed using sick days for his dental operation and his employer agreed, he shouldn't have his pay docked.
unless the OP got it in writing, the boss will most likely just claim a misunderstanding and that dental operations (something planned and not sudden like a cold, flu, etc.) isn't included in his sick leave. it's as simple as that. sorry OP, sometimes being honest really doesn't get you anywhere.
edit: although i still think you should try talking to you boss about this, just don't expect too much. |
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