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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
One of my coteachers got pissed off the other day and had the entire class kneel with their hands up in the air.
I was laughing, because it reminded me of some things my Mother made me do as a kid (that was one of them) when she wasn't whipping my ass. |
I'm not surprised you think that punishment was funny. I'm not too sure how bright you are, but do you realise that your comments only strengthen modern theories that show violence is a learned behavior - usually acquired through primary (and secondary) socialisation. Well done that man.
And while it may come as some surprise to you, in my country (and my culture), it is considered an adults duty to protect defenseless children. So it is my business when I see an adult spread eagle a child against a wall, and then beat the living bejesus out of them with a 5 foot jagged piece of wood.
But anyway, we've had all these discussions before on daves. Basically, it comes down to whether you've had a very narrow and conservative (and often religious) upbringing. Western teachers who fit this description, usually support Korean corporal punishment, and they do extremely well in PS Korea. Good luck with that.
Further, Korean schools are becoming increasingly sensitive to foreigners seeing how they punish students. That's probably one of the major benefits of putting all these GET's into PS's. Knowing this, I'll bet that once the G20 is over (and the visiting press has gone), it will be back to medieval punishment regimes in Korean public schools. Thankfully, I won't be around to have to see (and hear) it anymore. |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oldfatfargang, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. So in other words when you try to play hero, you end up looking stupid. And please stop thinking your own culture is the "right" culture just because it is your own. I'd say the punishment system is working pretty good here. It doesn't mean they should be beat senselessly, but the way my school punishes kids is working just fine.
And nice hyperbole there. Vegabundo is a violent man because he thinks kids lifting their hands in the air was funny. First of all your argument doesn't even make sense. He was laughing at a non violent act. Logic is not strong wit this one. Nice work Freud  |
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Cerulean
Joined: 19 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad to read both ends of the argument here. For some reason, I thought the board would be full of congrats.
I'll state my position as simply an outside observer. If the society I am a guest in, and don't vote in, chooses to punish its students this way, so be it. Yes, it can go too far and be administered for what I believe to be stupid reasons, but I will not change it by speaking out against my school, co-workers or the society.
My problem is that it doesn't have a replacement. At least not at my school and not that I am aware of.
Are students now without consequences?
I don't believe the West is a wonderful example. I agree, it's a good reference to show that Korea will be fine but that's about it. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| oldfatfarang wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
One of my coteachers got pissed off the other day and had the entire class kneel with their hands up in the air.
I was laughing, because it reminded me of some things my Mother made me do as a kid (that was one of them) when she wasn't whipping my ass. |
I'm not too sure how bright you are. |
I'm not sure either, but I am fairly sure I'm "brighter" than you are, feel free to use any standard metric (IQ test, standardized test scores, etc)
I don't advocate violence and I most certainly don't support any sort of sadism. If I saw examples of such, I'd step in precisely the way you did, perhaps probably even more forcefully.
I also think there's "violence" and "violence". yes my mother was overly generous in opening up the can of whupass, and today she'll admit to it.
But your theory fails laughably, because despite the "violence" perpetrated upon me as a youngster, I'm remarkably NON violent as an adult. I remain very skittish about hitting anyone in the face, much less actually throwing a first punch (have never done such a thing)
oh yea.. and as a child, I played with toy soldiers, fake guns, all that stuff and none of this has contributed to any "violence" as I grew up.
So please take those "modern" idiotic theories and stick them somewhere. I've never "learned" any violence despite being raised in a very strict household and despite playing all those "violent" games that boys play.
I've never seen a kid (in my HS) having "the beejeesus" beaten out of him. What I've seen are measured whacks, never with anything resembling full force and always consisting of a set amount (usually something around 3-5)
that is not "violence", it's not sadism and it's not assault on innocent children. It's a form of punishment, I may not always agree with it, and especially what it's for, but the kid will be fine.
If I ever actually encountered a kid having the "beejeesus" beaten out of him, I'd be in complete agreement with your feelings on the matter, but the fact is, I haven't. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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your other massive fail oldfatfarang, is the assumption that I was raised in a very conservative and religious household.
Massively wrong on both counts.
it's a logical assumption, but massively wrong.
and "modern theories" on "violence" and children, etc is precisely why I despise the majority of the educational establishment in the US.
it's been "feminized", it's moronically idiotic and I want no part of it.
once again, no one supports sadism or actual "beatings". I'm not going to get upset over several measured (not full force) whacks on the rump with a stick, even when I may not have used that method myself. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Here are the inner working of the feminized nanny state "liberal" mind (I can't find a better word, liberal isn't a good one since I'm very liberal in most respects)
but the "it takes a village" feminized childrearing claptrap crowd
will tell you.
violence is a learned behavior, usually acquired thru primary and secondary socialization.
REALLY?
interesting.
Why isn't homosexuality "acquired" in an identical manner? (especially in the minds of this crowd, as opposed to "conservatives" (and I'm fully in the "liberal" camp on this one)
what makes one "behavioral set" different from another?? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
Here are the inner working of the feminized nanny state "liberal" mind (I can't find a better word, liberal isn't a good one since I'm very liberal in most respects)
but the "it takes a village" feminized childrearing claptrap crowd
will tell you.
violence is a learned behavior, usually acquired thru primary and secondary socialization.
REALLY?
interesting.
Why isn't homosexuality "acquired" in an identical manner? (especially in the minds of this crowd, as opposed to "conservatives" (and I'm fully in the "liberal" camp on this one)
what makes one "behavioral set" different from another?? |
That's a poor analogy. One might as well ask why isn't heterosexuality acquired in such a manner.
The answer is that neither sexuality is acquired though experience...you are born with such and such a mindset.
As for violence any study will tell you that adults who were beaten as children (beaten not punished) are more likely to beat their own children then adults who were not beaten as kids.
I do agree though that playing violent games and such do not predispose one to violence more-so than one is naturally inclined. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'd rather have corporal punishment as an available option instead of without it.
Anyways, no point trying to convince each other to take your point of view on this one. It's like talking to a wall. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
Here are the inner working of the feminized nanny state "liberal" mind (I can't find a better word, liberal isn't a good one since I'm very liberal in most respects)
but the "it takes a village" feminized childrearing claptrap crowd
will tell you.
violence is a learned behavior, usually acquired thru primary and secondary socialization.
REALLY?
interesting.
Why isn't homosexuality "acquired" in an identical manner? (especially in the minds of this crowd, as opposed to "conservatives" (and I'm fully in the "liberal" camp on this one)
what makes one "behavioral set" different from another?? |
That's a poor analogy. One might as well ask why isn't heterosexuality acquired in such a manner.
The answer is that neither sexuality is acquired though experience...you are born with such and such a mindset.
As for violence any study will tell you that adults who were beaten as children (beaten not punished) are more likely to beat their own children then adults who were not beaten as kids.
I do agree though that playing violent games and such do not predispose one to violence more-so than one is naturally inclined. |
The studies which you reference, probably fail to differentiate between being physically abused for unreasonable reasons and being physically punished (such as being spanked) for actual reasons. Frankly, I find myself feeling skeptical of some of the findings by psychology. It is a pseudo-science after all. Further, the way that they throw around some of their statistics (without considering a variety of subtleties) brings to mind the saying, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The answer is that neither sexuality is acquired though experience...you are born with such and such a mindset.
As for violence any study will tell you that adults who were beaten as children (beaten not punished) are more likely to beat their own children then adults who were not beaten as kids.
I do agree though that playing violent games and such do not predispose one to violence more-so than one is naturally inclined. |
As you said. "Beaten" not punished. Beaten is child abuse. And the research you cited is actually pretty mixed. It depends on what form of abuse, how long, and how severe. And whether or not the victim received psychological help.
Punishment is getting hit or penalized for something you did. Which as Vagabond mentioned is only warranted if the punishment matches the crime.
Now there are psych studies on behavior tendencies that predispose certain people to violent behavior. Like a research study on prison population males. Regardless of race, it found across the board, they tend to have much more aggressive, anti-social tendencies. Not only from their upbringing but also higher testosterone levels. But even if you have the tendency doesn't mean your still not responsible for your actions |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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In the case of physically punishing children (who are not your own) I hope those people who are advocating it are prepared to dish it out.
I for one, were I working in a Korean High School or Middle School would be almost physically sick were I forced to hit a bad student. I have never and will never hit one. I am not sure I will hit my own children when I have them...depends.
But as for other peoples children, there are so many steps available before you need to hit them. So many.
Also hitting someone would make me feel like a maniac, ogre, dirty, disgusting and lower my own percwption of myself. I would die a little inside.
I just hope you people who are advocating hitting kids are prepared to pich up that cane or piece of wood and hit them yourself. I wouldn't. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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There are lots of non-violent solutions to problems but many could be banned due to 'human rights'.
Short skirts: Ban them from entering the classroom or school until they put on the skirt correctly.
Trouble students: Expel them
Swearing: Writing lines, put on probation, etc. |
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Illysook
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty serious about my faith and I don't think that one needs to paddle a student to get him or her to behave. They barely have to behave in my class. I have them once a week and I'm supposed to give them "a positive experience with English." My worst problems are with sleeping and talking out of turn. I have those students stand up for a few minutes. Standing up was the punishment for talking during study hall at my American high school. I'm pretty sure that it's okay. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
Here are the inner working of the feminized nanny state "liberal" mind (I can't find a better word, liberal isn't a good one since I'm very liberal in most respects)
but the "it takes a village" feminized childrearing claptrap crowd
will tell you.
violence is a learned behavior, usually acquired thru primary and secondary socialization.
REALLY?
interesting.
Why isn't homosexuality "acquired" in an identical manner? (especially in the minds of this crowd, as opposed to "conservatives" (and I'm fully in the "liberal" camp on this one)
what makes one "behavioral set" different from another?? |
That's a poor analogy. One might as well ask why isn't heterosexuality acquired in such a manner.
The answer is that neither sexuality is acquired though experience...you are born with such and such a mindset.
As for violence any study will tell you that adults who were beaten as children (beaten not punished) are more likely to beat their own children then adults who were not beaten as kids.
I do agree though that playing violent games and such do not predispose one to violence more-so than one is naturally inclined. |
not as poor as you may believe. I might ask that of heterosexuality if the balance of hetero to homo would be 50-50 or even 66-34, but it's more around 90-10, perhaps 85-15 if you want to be generous.
also, interestingly enough, bible thumpers and "conservatives" (how I despise these categories the way they've developed stateside).. anyways, many of these people truly believe that homosexual behavior CAN be acquired. My father is one such person though he's the furthest thing from a bible thumper.
I would agree with you that actual beatings should not be allowed under almost any circumstances, that's not what I was talking about.
Every single case of corporal punishment I've encountered at my school I didn't have a single objection to, though granted I don't know what some of these adjosshi do in their distant homerooms/classrooms, I often encounter the female teacher doing the whacking outside of the teacher's room in the hall, but one of my coteachers last year was an adjosshi who was also a homeroom teacher and one time he whacked all of them in front of me in our english class as punishment for something disrespectful they did, but as I stress once again, it was measured, not remotely close to full force and it was three whacks, no more.
Even if I don't particularly agree that whacking them is the best solution in whatever instance, that kind of corporal punishment I'll never speak out against much less do something about. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Illysook wrote: |
| I'm pretty serious about my faith and I don't think that one needs to paddle a student to get him or her to behave. They barely have to behave in my class. I have them once a week and I'm supposed to give them "a positive experience with English." My worst problems are with sleeping and talking out of turn. I have those students stand up for a few minutes. Standing up was the punishment for talking during study hall at my American high school. I'm pretty sure that it's okay. |
oh I fully agree. I'd never dream of hitting a kid here for whatever reason.
Even if I were a Korean teacher with a homeroom who had to deal with all these issues and problems, hitting them would probably be the absolutely LAST thing I did, but I would never completely eliminate the option due to some sap/crap streaming out of Western educational establishments.
I also think certain Korean women are far superior to handling teenage boys (including disciplining them, even whacking them) than most Korean males. They have that amazing combo of tenderness and toughness that they can switch in and out of when necessary. |
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