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Dev
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: Is There Any Future For The United States? |
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Where do you think the U.S. will be in 30 or 50 years time?
I ask this because it seems as though everything is collapsing in the U.S.
1) I heard a report yesterday that the U.S. is losing jobs at a faster rate than the period right after the 1929 depression.
2) Since Clinton, The Democratic Party started taking corporate campaign contributions on the same scale that The Republican Party had. Obama topped everybody in accepting corporate money. Seems like The Democratic Party now is a less radical version of The Republicans, but more or less there to serve corporate interests. So, there is no serious opposition and no REAL CHANGE ANYONE CAN BELIEVE IN.
3) The housing foreclosure crisis is a crisis in corruption and morality.
4) Islamaphobia is there to take the heat off the government and Wall Street and give the public another target to release their frustrations on. But what about China and all the jobs that they're stealing from America?
The BP oil spill is just a memory now. They're probably a more worthy target than a few Muslims who want to build a mosque near ground zero.
5) The U.S.'s military budget is more than that of all the other countries of the world combined. How long can the U.S. be spending money trying to control the globe while ignoring needs at home?
I think something's got to give one of these days. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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you know it's funny because recently a lot of Americans are asking this very same question on different internet forums. It's seems like morale is low.
in 30 to 50 years time I think the US will resemble something like bartertown from Mad max. I think I can survive in a place like that. Maybe slavery will come back in style? i think people are going to lose confidence in money and government first though.
It's going to be very interesting. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Every country has its ups and downs. The US is no different. We're in a 'downing' period right now, but so are a lot of nations.
Demographics, however, is destiny. And this election, in a weird way, just proved it.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/11/3/916833/-Why-I-Am-PUMPED-To-Be-a-Democrat-Today-%28Good-News,-Everyone!%29
A gay person (forgot the gender) won the Lexington, KY mayor position. That's KENTUCKY, home of Rand Paul and dips***s. If they can do that, then things aren't all that bad.
An African-American woman won a House seat in AL, Alabama of ALL places!
A lot of the tea party folks came in to power, but.... they have no plan . You can't solve a financial recession with tax cuts and spending cuts- ask Hoover about that. So, the tea jihadies will either be co-opted by the GOP or lose their seats in 2 years. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
Every country has its ups and downs. The US is no different. We're in a 'downing' period right now, but so are a lot of nations.
A gay person (forgot the gender) won the Lexington, KY mayor position. That's KENTUCKY, home of Rand Paul and dips***s. If they can do that, then things aren't all that bad.
An African-American woman won a House seat in AL, Alabama of ALL places!
A lot of the tea party folks came in to power, but.... they have no plan . You can't solve a financial recession with tax cuts and spending cuts- ask Hoover about that. So, the tea jihadies will either be co-opted by the GOP or lose their seats in 2 years. |
The problem that libertarians (the intelligent, original Tea Party members) have is that everyone on the left has to paint them as extremists, even though by definition they're much more moderate than either party (owing to the desire to reduce gov't involvement in your home and in your business).
And yes, the U.S. has a stable economy with a very strong foundation. We can both produce wealth and consume massively. Most developing countries' growth is based on export and couldn't support their own infrastructure if they had to sell to themselves. The worst that would happen with excessive U.S. debt would be to print a pile of money which would drop our imports and start the hangover.
As to why we spend so much money on the military, the U.S. has complete control of all of the world's oceans. If it decides that country X wont sell internationally, then it doesn't. That creates significant leverage over any country which isn't self sufficient, with a self sustaining economy (that is, almost every country outside of the western hemisphere and Europe).
EDIT:
Oh, and the Tea Party plan is to implement a sales tax that eliminates the tax burden for the poor and progressively increases the effective burden based on spending above the poverty level. Info is at www.fairtax.org |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope!! In about a year we are going to apply for admission to Canada. We will have a monarch then and everything will be all ticky boo! Or we all suicide then well it will not matter. We sell offf the world class research institutes, give the best university system in the world away and disband the gigantic armed forces which are without peer in the world. Just like that. None of this is likely is it?" |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| The problem that libertarians (the intelligent, original Tea Party members) have is that everyone on the left has to paint them as extremists, even though by definition they're much more moderate than either party (owing to the desire to reduce gov't involvement in your home and in your business). |
Don't be one of those Libertarians that goes around redefining words to try to make their case. There's nothing politically moderate about Libertarianism. |
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mmstyle
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: wherever
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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OP, you might like to read some of what Chris Hedges writes. You might find his point of view interesting.
Comm...I can't tell from your post where you stand based on what you wrote. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Corporations are good.
Average Joe Blow small business owner can not compete with Siemens, Haier, Toshiba, Nestle, or any other internationally based company.
Why do you think US companies are getting bigger and stronger? Its to compete with OTHER global companies from Europe, Japan, China, etc... |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Is There Any Future For The United States? |
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| Dev wrote: |
Where do you think the U.S. will be in 30 or 50 years time?
I ask this because it seems as though everything is collapsing in the U.S.
1) I heard a report yesterday that the U.S. is losing jobs at a faster rate than the period right after the 1929 depression.
2) Since Clinton, The Democratic Party started taking corporate campaign contributions on the same scale that The Republican Party had. Obama topped everybody in accepting corporate money. Seems like The Democratic Party now is a less radical version of The Republicans, but more or less there to serve corporate interests. So, there is no serious opposition and no REAL CHANGE ANYONE CAN BELIEVE IN.
3) The housing foreclosure crisis is a crisis in corruption and morality.
4) Islamaphobia is there to take the heat off the government and Wall Street and give the public another target to release their frustrations on. But what about China and all the jobs that they're stealing from America?
The BP oil spill is just a memory now. They're probably a more worthy target than a few Muslims who want to build a mosque near ground zero.
5) The U.S.'s military budget is more than that of all the other countries of the world combined. How long can the U.S. be spending money trying to control the globe while ignoring needs at home?
I think something's got to give one of these days. |
Good morning, Dev. It's about time you woke up. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Don't be one of those Libertarians that goes around redefining words to try to make their case. There's nothing politically moderate about Libertarianism. |
Oh? I'm pretty sure that American politics began with libertarianism being the norm. Even in modern times though, the concept of a government which fulfills only the most basic functions that allow it to retain the title is pretty much the pinnacle of "moderation" I would think.
Getting back on the topic, the fact that the U.S. doesn't need exports to maintain its economy makes it very durable. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Don't be one of those Libertarians that goes around redefining words to try to make their case. There's nothing politically moderate about Libertarianism. |
Oh? I'm pretty sure that American politics began with libertarianism being the norm. |
No, it didn't. The history of America is decidedly non-libertarian. Unless you consider trade protectionism, slavery, regulation of interstate commerce, military aggression towards indigenous peoples, expansionism, and so forth to be tenants of Libertarianism?
That said, even if America was originally Libertarian (which it wasn't, but purely for consideration as a hypothetical), that still wouldn't make Libertarian less extreme a political position. It would just mean that the America in the past had an extremist political system.
| comm wrote: |
| Even in modern times though, the concept of a government which fulfills only the most basic functions that allow it to retain the title is pretty much the pinnacle of "moderation" I would think. |
No, it's the pinnacle of anti-government extremism (barring total anarchy). By contrast, complete state-control is the pinnacle of government extremism. Moderation is somewhere in between. That's why it's called moderation. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:10 am Post subject: |
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First: my apologies to Dev for hijacking his interesting thread by arguing with Fox. Going back to the OP, is there anything that really "could give" and lead to the crumbling of U.S. power? Sure we have a lot of problems, but I don't see any existential threats on the horizon.
| Fox wrote: |
No, it didn't. The history of America is decidedly non-libertarian. Unless you consider trade protectionism, slavery, regulation of interstate commerce, military aggression towards indigenous peoples, expansionism, and so forth to be tenants of Libertarianism?
That said, even if America was originally Libertarian (which it wasn't, but purely for consideration as a hypothetical), that still wouldn't make Libertarian less extreme a political position. It would just mean that the America in the past had an extremist political system.
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I'm sorry I didn't specify, but when I said "began" I meant the founding and first 50 years. You know, the time when we were a confederacy and then a federal republic with limited federal power. This was the period that the Federalist party was extinguished and constitutionalist Jacksonian Democrats took power.
| Fox wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| Even in modern times though, the concept of a government which fulfills only the most basic functions that allow it to retain the title is pretty much the pinnacle of "moderation" I would think. |
No, it's the pinnacle of anti-government extremism (barring total anarchy). By contrast, complete state-control is the pinnacle of government extremism. Moderation is somewhere in between. That's why it's called moderation. |
By that logic, one could say that some people would like being completely engulfed in flame while others don't like to be on fire at all, so "moderation" must be when only half of you is on fire.
But perhaps we're applying the word in different ways. I can see how, in modern times, libertarianism is not "moderate" when compared to political parties that wish for the government to interfere either with your personal affairs or those of your business. In the context of a political climate where the question isn't "How much power should the government have?" but "What should the government use its power to force people to do?", the concept of a simple government is extreme. However, it seems obvious that a libertarian government which has limited social and economic purview will in effect be "moderate" (remembering the actual definition, of course). |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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I guess the real question is: what is going to give? Or to rephrase it, what bubble is going to burst?
Will it be the education bubble? Or maybe it will be the inflation bubble?
I think that whatever happens in the US, it will be felt around the world globally so none of us are really safe. I'm actually worried about my future myself and hoping the economy works itself out but it doesn't seem likely at all. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
No, it didn't. The history of America is decidedly non-libertarian. Unless you consider trade protectionism, slavery, regulation of interstate commerce, military aggression towards indigenous peoples, expansionism, and so forth to be tenants of Libertarianism?
That said, even if America was originally Libertarian (which it wasn't, but purely for consideration as a hypothetical), that still wouldn't make Libertarian less extreme a political position. It would just mean that the America in the past had an extremist political system.
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I'm sorry I didn't specify, but when I said "began" I meant the founding and first 50 years. You know, the time when we were a confederacy and then a federal republic with limited federal power. This was the period that the Federalist party was extinguished and constitutionalist Jacksonian Democrats took power.
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You failed to address his argument. Completely failed. How do you explain slavery, high tariffs, and all the other topics that he brought up? You totally avoided them.
Limited federal power? Please. Sure, compared to the 20th century, but pretty much every nation-state can say the same.
And remember: 1. The federalists were more in favor of a STRONG central government, the Democrats were more in favor of states rights. 2. Jackson was against the Bank of the USA and did not renew its charter. That was one way he DEcentralized power. He was in favor of the gold standard that many libertarians love today. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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The US at the time of the articles of confederation was as close to a libertarian system as any organized government has been. However, that was only at the federal level. States were pretty wacky and wild with their particular choices of government. Massachusetts was a theocracy. You had to belong to a congragationalist church to vote, and you voted at the church. Pretty wild, eh?
Oh and BB, I am still looking for the book that describes Saladins purge of the Shiaa from Egypt, but at the moment I am crippled by extreme laziness. As soon as this passes, I will find it. |
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