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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course, I am not surprised that Sergio would make that argument. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Measuring IQ is such a sham |
That's as maybe.
However, picture the scene: one day, Kuros realizes that he needs several laborious but low-skilled jobs to be done in his home. He's too busy to do them himself, so he has the choice between two poor whites from northern England, two poor blacks from Detroit, and two illiterate Chinese peasants to do these jobs - all at the same rate.
Perhaps my views are completely misplaced, but to me the Chinese seem far likelier to not only complete the tasks, but also behave in a civilized and polite fashion.
Since China's poor aren't permitted to sponge off the taxpayer for a living - and must either make themselves useful or if not face starvation - this informs my view more than genetics or IQ. Welfare has had utterly ruinous consequences for poor whites & poor blacks - but barely any consequences at all for Korean-, Japanese-, Chinese-, Pakistani- and Indian-Americans (all of whom far likelier to have at least a bachelors than the general population). You "lean right fiscally", right? So I take it as a given that you've read the most influential libertarian book of all time, 'Losing Ground'? Well, time to read another. Clearly, Kuros, the Chinese (and capitalism without democracy) must lead the way!
I love China. I love Saudi Arabia. But I have absolute contempt for welfare, democracy and the West. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Perhaps my views are completely misplaced, but to me the Chinese seem far likelier to not only complete the tasks, but also behave in a civilized and polite fashion. |
Instinctively I'd agree, but I hope you don't associate cultural norms directly with IQ. I'm sure there are a lot of very intelligent people who would rob Kuros blind in your scenario, rather than completing the task.
That said, I would suspect that living in a "get ahead or die" part of the world would inspire a lot more hard work in education and training. But that's still pretty deep in "unsupported opinion" territory. |
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Hindsight
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Panda writes:
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| I always regard it as the ultimate joke when someone says one government never lies to thus brainwash their citizens. |
Sorry to break it to you, honey, but it's not a joke.
China is a totalitarian country. Totalitarian countries generally lie to their citizens and strive to "brainwash" them, as you put it (if they didn't feel this was necessary they wouldn't be totalitarian, would they?). Not all countries are totalitarian. However, some democracies have some of the characteristics of a totalitarian country, such as South Korea.
In a modern, mature democracy, it is not the job of the government to tell its citizens how to think or what to believe. If the government lies to its citizens, people tend to get upset and kick them out.
A government would have a hard time brainwashing people when there is freedom of information and the press. Do you know what a "freedom of information" or "sunshine" law is? Most democratic countries have them now. A Chinese might be amazed at the information any American citizen can get through filing a FOI request with the government, federal, state or local.
Abraham Lincoln said,
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
I believe this is true in China, too. There are some very brave individuals fighting for what they believe is right in China. You can't "brainwash" someone if they don't want to be.
What a totalitarian government can do is arrest such a "troublemaker." In the old Soviet Union political prisoners were put in prison and then sent to a Siberian gulag. In Nazi Germany they simply put a bullet in your head.
What do they do in China?
Last edited by Hindsight on Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Measuring IQ is such a sham |
That's as maybe.
However, picture the scene: one day, Kuros realizes that he needs several laborious but low-skilled jobs to be done in his home. He's too busy to do them himself, so he has the choice between two poor whites from northern England, two poor blacks from Detroit, and two illiterate Chinese peasants to do these jobs - all at the same rate.
Perhaps my views are completely misplaced, but to me the Chinese seem far likelier to not only complete the tasks, but also behave in a civilized and polite fashion. |
There's a good chance they'd rip me off if they got the chance. I don't know. Luckily I'm not stuck with such choices. I can screen for candidates, cull criminal records, basically do a lot of things.
But as for the jurisdiction? Of the three, the US has the laws most favorable to employers, as long as the position isn't competitive enough where I'd be expected to give health care benefits. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Hindsight wrote: |
Panda writes:
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| I always regard it as the ultimate joke when someone says one government never lies to thus brainwash their citizens. |
Sorry to break it to you, honey, but it's not a joke.
In a modern, mature democracy, it is not the job of the government to tell its citizens how to think or what to believe. If the government lies to its citizens, people tend to get upset and kick them out.
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It's not the job of the government to lie to its citizens or tell them what to believe, but they still do both to the best of their ability. Some people call this "politics". If you'd named a "modern, mature democracy" in your post I'd have found an instance of that government lying for you already.
I feel bad for taking the easy one here, but I remember a little "Gulf of Tonkin" incident that was in the news for a while... There are more recent, more controversial ones of late, but that's something to hold you over. Or was there a different "modern, mature democracy" you were thinking of?
Oh, and I don't think there are any democracies in the world today, only different types of republics. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Hindsight wrote: |
Panda writes:
| Quote: |
| I always regard it as the ultimate joke when someone says one government never lies to thus brainwash their citizens. |
Sorry to break it to you, honey, but it's not a joke.
In a modern, mature democracy, it is not the job of the government to tell its citizens how to think or what to believe. If the government lies to its citizens, people tend to get upset and kick them out.
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It's not the job of the government to lie to its citizens or tell them what to believe, but they still do both to the best of their ability. Some people call this "politics". If you'd named a "modern, mature democracy" in your post I'd have found an instance of that government lying for you already.
I feel bad for taking the easy one here, but I remember a little "Gulf of Tonkin" incident that was in the news for a while... There are more recent, more controversial ones of late, but that's something to hold you over. Or was there a different "modern, mature democracy" you were thinking of?
Oh, and I don't think there are any democracies in the world today, only different types of republics. |
Hindsight is correct, though. There is a meaningful distinction between a totalitarian regime like China and a democratic republic like America. China purposefully obstructs and manages its citizenry's contact with the outside world, and keeps its regulations murky and opaque to allow the government greater reign. America gets its message out, but tries to speak over dissent, not shut it out, and it has an array of laws and regulations, confusing and inaccessible to the normal citizen, but transparent and available to any who know the complex governmental organs.
Panda tried to set an impossible standard, a government that never lies, and use it to enforce an absurd equivalence, that politically China and America are essentially the same. |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Hindsight wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I always regard it as the ultimate joke when someone says one government never lies to thus brainwash their citizens. |
.......
Abraham Lincoln said,
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
I believe this is true in China, too. There are some very brave individuals fighting for what they believe is right in China. You can't "brainwash" someone if they don't want to be.
What a totalitarian government can do is arrest such a "troublemaker." In the old Soviet Union political prisoners were put in prison and then sent to a Siberian gulag. In Nazi Germany they simply put a bullet in your head.
What do they do in China? |
Thanks for your post and I agree with your points... but that didn't make you interpret my point correctly anyway.
I am not saying Chinese government is not brainwashing Chinese, I am saying every government is brainwashing their people, no matter where you are from...
No one should judge Chinese( or any other people) for not knowing something they know better, because we (Chinese) might know a lot of more shit than you do. We could laugh our asses off how stupid you guys are while you firmly believe we are more brainwashed.
I personally believe religions are No.1 brainwash ( not necessarily negative meaning). morals and so called cultures are behind that (depends on where you are from), then our school, family education...
Even your apple phone is brainwashing you that your blood is royal since you are using an apple phone, you do or do not accept is not a matter because you dont even notice .... brainwashing is called brainwashing because it makes you not know anything happen to your brain.
So when you say you are not brainwashed, I am sorry, you are so brainwashed.
(Okay, please just read it as a joke) |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
Oh, and I don't think there are any democracies in the world today, only different types of republics. |
I really appreciate this statement. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I suspect there's a lot of misrepresentation of China in the West. Whenever an American calls someone 'brainwashed', or accuses a state of spreading 'propaganda' and censoring 'information', I get suspicious. In any case, there's nothing wrong with censorship when the thing censored is perverse in nature; and I suspect that a good portion of the 'information' Chinese authorities censor is just Western perversion. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| I suspect there's a lot of misrepresentation of China in the West. |
+1
Same with North Korea. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to live in North Korea in it's present state though. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| uh, I agree with China being unfairly maligned sometimes, but north korea? They seem a nation of malformed starvelings swiming naked across the Yalu to get into China, all for bowl of Ramen. I don't see how that can be misrepresented JV |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| uh, I agree with China being unfairly maligned sometimes, but north korea? They seem a nation of malformed starvelings swiming naked across the Yalu to get into China, all for bowl of Ramen. I don't see how that can be misrepresented JV |
There are hardly masses trying to swim across the Yalu. Most who enter China do go back to NK on there own free will. Although it's to bring back hard earned cash. Granted life is hard there, but it isn't the absolute totalitarian state that the American media portrays it to be.
I'm willing to bet that most average citizens there are more concerned with feeding their families than free speech. The vast majority are off the radar for punishment from the government. |
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Hindsight
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Koveras wrote:
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| I suspect there's a lot of misrepresentation of China in the West. Whenever an American calls someone 'brainwashed', or accuses a state of spreading 'propaganda' and censoring 'information', I get suspicious. In any case, there's nothing wrong with censorship when the thing censored is perverse in nature; and I suspect that a good portion of the 'information' Chinese authorities censor is just Western perversion. |
Why don't you try reading the posts (correctly) before slandering people, Koveras.
I used a big typeface because it seems that may be the only way to get your attention.
The one claiming governments (including China) brainwash people is Panda, who is apparently Chinese.
There seems to be a lot of slippery word use going on here, bending the same word to apply to China and to a modern democracy with freedom of speech.
What happens when Chinese exercise freedom of speech to protest the actions of their government?
Just look at history.
They get out their tanks and line them up against unarmed people with signs. Then, if they don't leave, they shoot them.
Look at the recent Nobel Prize winner. He's under house arrest with his wife.
He's lucky. More often they go to prison.
Even people who travel to Beijing to talk to the government often get hustled into hotel rooms with armed guards and whisked out of the city.
Chinese know that if they say the wrong thing there are government repercussions, serious ones, including prison or death.
Now tell me that America or Canada or Britain or Italy or Sweden or any other modern Democracy threatens to shoot its citizens in a public street if they protest?
Anyone with access to full, unbiased news, which the Chinese people do not have, can see this is not so.
And while you're at it, show me where countries like this censor journalists and the internet?
And show me a modern democracy with only ONE political party?
The reality is a totalitarian country like China is not the same as a democracy, no matter how much you twist the words.
The Chinese people know that if 100 or 1,000 or 10,l000 people gather in a public square to protest their government, soldiers will open fire on them. How do they know this? Because China has already done it.
And as to the myth of China the peaceful neighbor, what a crock! Nearly a million Chinese soldiers invaded Korea.
China invaded the peaceful, almost completely unarmed independent country of Tibet and has killed about 1 million Tibetans, including pregnant women, in a systematic program of cultural genocide. When Tibetans protest, they are arrested and tortured by sadistic Chinese soldiers, if they aren't simply shot down in the street like dogs. Go on the internet, there are photos and historical documentation.
China is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan, and to go to war with any country that helps defend that country.
China threatened unlimited retaliation against Japan for a minor incident at sea iinstigated by the Chinese, nvolving Japanese territorial waters that China apparently now claims.
Yes, Panda, you are correct. You have been brainwashed. You do not know the truth about your own country. And, I suspect, like a good Chinese, you will do everything possible to deny the truth and hide from it. After all, you can fool some of the people all of the time.
Once China fully builds up its Navy, it may well treat the rest of Asia like it has Korea and Tibet. It has already begun to assert its sovereignty in areas of the China Sea claimed by other countries, well beyond China's borders.
Yet it is odd how in discussions like this, someone somehow always finds a way to blame the United States for everything.
Last edited by Hindsight on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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JV, lets for a moment assume that the constant reports of the government insanity up north are as you say exaggerated. How about the constant famine? The begging/demanding of food. The constant flow of aid from China? Is this all exaggerated? North Korean defectors are inches shorter than their southern brethern. I am hardpressed to think of a reason for this that does not indicate massive problems with delivering nutrition to their populace.
Hindsight, chill out. At this point, just about every western gov has a pretty bad track record dealing with people. Granted its not quite the same, but Jose Padilla was tortured, and I am not comfortable in general with the state of american prisons, which at this point are giant rape factories. I don't know why China hates falun gong, or why its quite so draconian in Tibet or Uigherville, but we did just invade two countries, one arbitrarily, resulting in a couple hundred thousand deaths.. I am not feeling quite so comfortable sitting in moral judgement at the moment. |
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