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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
Now, where I was educated this would be considered polemic.
YOU said that "the UK was well behind Korea" in a number of areas
The facts don't put the UK "well behind". |
I invited you to re-examine what I wrote a couple of pages back, because I substantiated what I said. Unfortunately, you are sticking doggedly to Legnum and have failed to address any of the points I made - instead arguing that my own claims are based exclusively on qualitative experiences, which is simply not true. Please look at what I was saying:
- the UK is in a mess
Please look at the post above for a whole host of facts about where the UK's economy is right now. If you suspect any of those claims please tell me, and I will provide reputable links to substantiate them. Considering those statitistics, I don't think it is hyperbolic to describe the UK as being in a mess. The Korean economy, on the other hand, is forecast to grow by 6% this year by the IMF, and its unemployment rate is only at 3.4%.
- shockingly high rates of teenage pregnancy
The statistics prove me right. The UK has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe and the western world. Korea is way behind, to the extent that the gap can appropriately be described as a chasm.
- chronic shortage of housing
Again, I invite you to look at the evidence. There are a plethora of statistics, reports that highlight the problem, and much scholarship. Here's a bitesize article on the Beeb:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8501479.stm
Underhousing is just such a huge problem here, that by and large people have just have to accept it, which is great, because now governments can expect their populace to live like students well into adulthood.
- the hall of shame (public transport)
Again, look at the evidence - it is appropriate to describe the UK as being in the public transport hall of shame*. It's a disgrace that the UK has failed to to sufficiently invest and improve its public transport infrastructure, and yes it is old, but that's really not an argument is it? I mean the UK isn't poor like Niger.
Look at Japan for example. Substantial parts of its rail network were built over one hundred years ago while the subway in Tokyo is over 80 years old. Yes, it's somewhat old, but you would never know it.
* http://chat.thisislondon.co.uk/london/threadnonInd.jsp?forum=18&thread=322777
Now you make a reasonable point when pointing out that public transportation, the internet and cell phones are not the only aspects of infrastructure. Still, I never recalled a huge problem with sewage in Korea - maybe this is a problem impacting more greatly on your area, and refuse collection, although somewhat short of my expectations, was carried out on a reasonably frequent basis.
I would still maintain that overall, Korea's infrastructure is more sophisticated than the UK's, based on my own observations and the statistics. The internet, cell phones, roads and public transport are just so important in my opinion, that they should be given considerable weighting when debating the pros and cons of a country's infrastructure.
- most lamentable area is education
Well yes, it is. Again, look at the indicators. The gap between private and state education is overwhelming � and growing, and it is not an exaggeration to describe it as education apartheid. Sure, the UK is not in Liberia�s league, but the status quo is simply unacceptable in a country which generally deludes itself into thinking that it is a beacon of meritocracy.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100060295/attainment-gap-between-private-and-state-school-pupils-doubled-under-new-labour/
Now on the other stuff, I supplied convincing evidence � apart from Legnum � which shows that Korea is an education superpower. Look at the findings of the OECD: Korea is performing superbly in mathematics, reading and science � often in the top 3 of all of them.
| Quote: |
| The facts put the UK ahead on most indicators, marginally ahead on one (marginal as in doesn't show on the graphic) and clearly ahead on one other measure. The overall rankings still remain UK #13 South Korea #27. Korea may do better on two variables but, as they say in the UK, one swallow does not make a summer's day. I never said the UK out-performs S.Korea on ALL measures. I conceded from the beginning S.Korea is clearly better on one. |
Again, I have explained why I am extremely suspicious of Legnum�s findings, and irrespective of whether it has ties to leading universities or not, it really doesn�t convince me. Sure, when we were 18 we bowed gracefully before the might of these institutions, but when we learn to think critically, we start looking at things more objectively. Just examine the basis for its claim that Korea is less safe than the UK � it�s absurd. Nobody I know would believe it.
Sure, you can be blinded by the big names, but I am old enough to know that even the biggest names get it wrong. Just look at Harvard: what�s a vile creature like Alan Dershowitz doing there? Now I am not suggesting that the academics involved in Legnum�s efforts are in his league because that would be unfair, but it is natural to question something that uses perception surveys to determine outcomes, and something that constructs a picture of life which is so at odds with my own experiences � as well as the statistics.
| Quote: |
| Regarding safety. I genuinely believe Korea is not safe. Yes, you are correct, as a male walking the streets you 'feel' safe. And certainly S.Korea is safer than South Africa. But tell my wife that S.Korea is safe when she was sexually assaulted at 2.00pm (pm, as in the afternoon) in a busy subway, and no-one came to her aid. You see, what you fail to understand is that measures of safety include ALL people living within the society, not just the strongest and most able to defend themselves. Neither the UK nor Korea should be proud of the safety of the most vulnerable; and I am not saying the UK should be, but you seem to be saying Korea is. Korea's stats on the safety of the most venerable is miserable, hence its poor showing in all of the recent comparisons I have read. |
My observations are sure as hell important � I lived in two UK cities and two Korean metropolitan cities for years. But I substantiated my claim with statistics, and sure, while statistics are almost always imperfect, the gap was so overwhelming that it could not be discounted. Arguments about South Africa � I know you didn�t go that far � are just a red herring. Now yes, some women get assaulted at night in Korea and I am genuinely sorry that your wife was subject to such an awful experience, but the same happens in the UK too.
Of course the vulnerable in society will always be, well, the most vulnerable. I never claimed that Korea was perfect, but the statistics and my qualitative experiences � and those of countless others � suggest that Legnum got it wrong. Arguments about Korea being less safe than people imagine, and vulnerable people being more vulnerable are disingenuous - on the latter the same is true in both countries.
| Quote: |
| So,to get back to basic principles, YOU said the UK is well behind Korea, and I used Legatum to prove that was not the case. You said Legatum is not scholarly, as a former researcher, I think it is. You don't like Legatum because it uses some qualitative statistics, but argue your point based on personal observations. I asked for a reputable source to support you beliefs and you have provided none. |
I don�t doubt your background in research, but also have a background in research and a general interest in it. If you are convinced by Legnum, and I am unable to make you question your commitment to its findings, then I have to respect that and let others decide for themselves. I think I have done a very good job of substantiating my claims with reputable evidence and believe that it is strong enough to convince others too.
| Quote: |
| Korea works for you, and good on you for that. UK doesn't, I have no problem there either. |
Sure, both countries are imperfect, and I have offered many criticisms of Korea before, right on this board. If your instincts tell you something different, then ultimately that�s not something I can take you to task for.
And on the subject of your last indicator, yes I agree, the UK does trump Korea on the beer front 
Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:59 am; edited 5 times in total |
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trogdor
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| The UK seemed fine and dandy when I was home to visit last month. |
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PastorYoon
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Sea of Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Only after having lived in Korea, I started really appreciating my home country, freedom, and overall openness that the West has to offer. |
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youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: |
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OP
You are right...it is not special anymore. Many people do it.
And Korea looks terrible on a resume. You will be competing with others who have related Canadian work experience to whatever job you are applying for. Employers know that it is very easy nowadays to hop on a plane and work in Korea. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Now, where I was educated this would be considered polemic.
YOU said that "the UK was well behind Korea" in a number of areas
The facts don't put the UK "well behind". |
I invited you to re-examine what I wrote a couple of pages back, because I substantiated what I said. Unfortunately, you are sticking doggedly to Legnum and have failed to address any of the points I made - instead arguing that my own claims are based exclusively on qualitative experiences, which is simply not true. Please look at what I was saying:
- the UK is in a mess
Please look at the post above for a whole host of facts about where the UK's economy is right now. If you suspect any of those claims please tell me, and I will provide reputable links to substantiate them. Considering those statitistics, I don't think it is hyperbolic to describe the UK as being in a mess. The Korean economy, on the other hand, is forecast to grow by 6% this year by the IMF, and its unemployment rate is only at 3.4%.
- shockingly high rates of teenage pregnancy
The statistics prove me right. The UK has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe and the western world. Korea is way behind, to the extent that the gap can appropriately be described as a chasm.
- chronic shortage of housing
Again, I invite you to look at the evidence. There are a plethora of statistics, reports that highlight the problem, and much scholarship. Here's a bitesize article on the Beeb:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8501479.stm
Underhousing is just such a huge problem here, that by and large people have just have to accept it, which is great, because now governments can expect their populace to live like students well into adulthood.
- the hall of shame (public transport)
Again, look at the evidence - it is appropriate to describe the UK as being in the public transport hall of shame*. It's a disgrace that the UK has failed to to sufficiently invest and improve its public transport infrastructure, and yes it is old, but that's really not an argument is it? I mean the UK isn't poor like Niger.
Look at Japan for example. Substantial parts of its rail network were built over one hundred years ago while the subway in Tokyo is over 80 years old. Yes, it's somewhat old, but you would never know it.
* http://chat.thisislondon.co.uk/london/threadnonInd.jsp?forum=18&thread=322777
Now you make a reasonable point when pointing out that public transportation, the internet and cell phones are not the only aspects of infrastructure. Still, I never recalled a huge problem with sewage in Korea - maybe this is a problem impacting more greatly on your area, and refuse collection, although somewhat short of my expectations, was carried out on a reasonably frequent basis.
I would still maintain that overall, Korea's infrastructure is more sophisticated than the UK's, based on my own observations and the statistics. The internet, cell phones, roads and public transport are just so important in my opinion, that they should be given considerable weighting when debating the pros and cons of a country's infrastructure.
- most lamentable area is education
Well yes, it is. Again, look at the indicators. The gap between private and state education is overwhelming � and growing, and it is not an exaggeration to describe it as education apartheid. Sure, the UK is not in Liberia�s league, but the status quo is simply unacceptable in a country which generally deludes itself into thinking that it is a beacon of meritocracy.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100060295/attainment-gap-between-private-and-state-school-pupils-doubled-under-new-labour/
Now on the other stuff, I supplied convincing evidence � apart from Legnum � which shows that Korea is an education superpower. Look at the findings of the OECD: Korea is performing superbly in mathematics, reading and science � often in the top 3 of all of them.
| Quote: |
| The facts put the UK ahead on most indicators, marginally ahead on one (marginal as in doesn't show on the graphic) and clearly ahead on one other measure. The overall rankings still remain UK #13 South Korea #27. Korea may do better on two variables but, as they say in the UK, one swallow does not make a summer's day. I never said the UK out-performs S.Korea on ALL measures. I conceded from the beginning S.Korea is clearly better on one. |
Again, I have explained why I am extremely suspicious of Legnum�s findings, and irrespective of whether it has ties to leading universities or not, it really doesn�t convince me. Sure, when we were 18 we bowed gracefully before the might of these institutions, but when we learn to think critically, we start looking at things more objectively. Just examine the basis for its claim that Korea is less safe than the UK � it�s absurd. Nobody I know would believe it.
Sure, you can be blinded by the big names, but I am old enough to know that even the biggest names get it wrong. Just look at Harvard: what�s a vile creature like Alan Dershowitz doing there? Now I am not suggesting that the academics involved in Legnum�s efforts are in his league because that would be unfair, but it is natural to question something that uses perception surveys to determine outcomes, and something that constructs a picture of life which is so at odds with my own experiences � as well as the statistics.
| Quote: |
| Regarding safety. I genuinely believe Korea is not safe. Yes, you are correct, as a male walking the streets you 'feel' safe. And certainly S.Korea is safer than South Africa. But tell my wife that S.Korea is safe when she was sexually assaulted at 2.00pm (pm, as in the afternoon) in a busy subway, and no-one came to her aid. You see, what you fail to understand is that measures of safety include ALL people living within the society, not just the strongest and most able to defend themselves. Neither the UK nor Korea should be proud of the safety of the most vulnerable; and I am not saying the UK should be, but you seem to be saying Korea is. Korea's stats on the safety of the most venerable is miserable, hence its poor showing in all of the recent comparisons I have read. |
My observations are sure as hell important � I lived in two UK cities and two Korean metropolitan cities for years. But I substantiated my claim with statistics, and sure, while statistics are almost always imperfect, the gap was so overwhelming that it could not be discounted. Arguments about South Africa � I know you didn�t go that far � are just a red herring. Now yes, some women get assaulted at night in Korea and I am genuinely sorry that your wife was subject to such an awful experience, but the same happens in the UK too.
Of course the vulnerable in society will always be, well, the most vulnerable. I never claimed that Korea was perfect, but the statistics and my qualitative experiences � and those of countless others � suggest that Legnum got it wrong. Arguments about Korea being less safe than people imagine, and vulnerable people being more vulnerable are disingenuous - on the latter the same is true in both countries.
| Quote: |
| So,to get back to basic principles, YOU said the UK is well behind Korea, and I used Legatum to prove that was not the case. You said Legatum is not scholarly, as a former researcher, I think it is. You don't like Legatum because it uses some qualitative statistics, but argue your point based on personal observations. I asked for a reputable source to support you beliefs and you have provided none. |
I don�t doubt your background in research, but also have a background in research and a general interest in it. If you are convinced by Legnum, and I am unable to make you question your commitment to its findings, then I have to respect that and let others decide for themselves. I think I have done a very good job of substantiating my claims with reputable evidence and believe that it is strong enough to convince others too.
| Quote: |
| Korea works for you, and good on you for that. UK doesn't, I have no problem there either. |
Sure, both countries are imperfect, and I have offered many criticisms of Korea before, right on this board. If your instincts tell you something different, then ultimately that�s not something I can take you to task for.
And on the subject of your last indicator, yes I agree, the UK does trump Korea on the beer front |
Yeah, the UK is a pretty terrible place alright. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Gwangjuboy: you asked, I deliver.
Korea ranked # 38 in murders. .0196336/1000
UK ranked # 46 in murders. .0140633/1000
Rape stats are a little better, but given the reluctance to report, the blame and shame the victim mentality here in Korea, and the use of 'blood payments' I don't think S.Korea can proudly tout this ranking.
Korea ranked # 16 in rape. .012621/1000
UK ranked # 13 in rape. .014217/1000
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Facts. Not hyperbole. No, the UK is NOT well behind Korea in safety. All your hyperbole and polemics aside, it is simply not the case.
But just to finish with Legatum, since the facts don't support your argument so you want to shot the messenger.
They collect what is known as Green Line Accounting data, I suppose a development of Quadrupedal Line Accounting, it itself a development of Triple Line Accounting. Since you know all about research you already know what that is and why there has been a move in that direction.
The use of Regression for statistical analysis is robust. The use of Likert scales has rigor (there are papers about likert scales as being truly interval, i.e. not really qualitative at all). The regression analysis incorporates both qualitative and quantitative data, so it is not just opinion as you argue.
Construct validity of Legatum is sound. You seem wound up over the use of data about perceptions which I guess you believe to have no face validity because you believe perceptions are opinions collected with likert scales. You know face validity is not really a validity, right? You also know Organizational/Industrial Psychology relies heavily on such self report data. As does Clinical Psych. As does Management. As does Marketing. etc. etc.
And something else you don't seem to understand about statistics. Personal stories are not necessarily qualitative. They are inductive. They can be qualitative or quantitative. Inductive data cannot be generalized, as you are trying to do.
And as for me being immature and 18. Ha, funny dude. And that you can think critically and I can't. At times you write well, but you always dip into the polemic. Lets deal with the facts.
Just remember: UK #13 South Korea #27
And there are more murders in S.Korea per capita than the UK. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never been to the U.K. but from what I've heard, it seems like a really depressing place to be. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
Gwangjuboy: you asked, I deliver.
Korea ranked # 38 in murders. .0196336/1000
UK ranked # 46 in murders. .0140633/1000
Rape stats are a little better, but given the reluctance to report, the blame and shame the victim mentality here in Korea, and the use of 'blood payments' I don't think S.Korea can proudly tout this ranking.
Korea ranked # 16 in rape. .012621/1000
UK ranked # 13 in rape. .014217/1000
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Facts. Not hyperbole. No, the UK is NOT well behind Korea in safety. All your hyperbole and polemics aside, it is simply not the case. |
Excuse me while I have a good laugh here.I have clearly substantiated everything I have said so far, but no, confronted with that, you are now commiting yourself to a really dubious position. The UK is well behind Korea when it comes to safety. There is four times as much violent crime in the UK per 100,000 people. All you have done is to show that there is a slightly higher incidence of a subset of violent crime - arguably the least common form of violence too. On your rape claims, you are back to the old 'Korea isn't perfect so it proves everything I say is correct' routine even though Korea actually has a better record on rape according to your own statistics! Have you even read anything about the exceptionally poor conviction rates for rape in the UK?
Using your own source, compare the number of per capita robberies and assaults - arguably amongst the most common forms of violent crime. It's clear that the UK is way behind in safety. Not polemics; not hyperbole; fact: according to your own source.
Assault
# 8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
# 46 Korea, South: 0.30684 per 1,000 people
Robbery
# 8 United Kingdom: 1.57433 per 1,000 people
# 53 Korea, South: 0.093008 per 1,000 people |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Gwanjuboy:
Sigh. I will spell this out for you.
YOU made the statement:
The UK is well behind Korea.
That is your hypothesis. The UK is well behind Korea.
Null Hypothesis = The UK is not well behind Korea.
Now, you know how this works. All I have to do is prove the null hypothesis. I did so with reputable stats from at least three sources.
Proven: He UK is NOT well behind Korea.
I do not have to do anything other than that. The null hypothesis is proven. You, not me, YOU must amend your hypothesis.
But let�s look at your �facts� (chortles, such as they are (well you did laugh at me))
the hall of shame (public transport)
compares London to other European cities. Says nothing about the UK vs. Korea
chronic shortage of housing
Is a piece about overcrowding in the UK. Does not compare the UK to Korea.
most lamentable area is education
Is a story about state school pupils doing well on the GCSE
Has nothing to do with any comparison between the UK and Korea.
And the fluff piece comparing the UK violence to South Africa.
Says nothing about UK vs. Korea
There is NOTHING in what you have provided that says anything about the UK being well behind Korea. NOTHING. You have provided absolutely nothing to support your position that the UK is well behind Korea. You had shown that the UK is behind other EU countries, or that London is behind other European cities.
You have used some of my sources to show that the UK ranks lower on 3 variables, with one variable showing a difference of note, but the source also cautions: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. And you do understand that law enforcement here in Korea is rather, umm, spotty.
So please, show some reputable data that places the UK well behind Korea. Not a fluff piece for some rag trying to sell copy. Not stuff about differences in ranking. Not stuff comparing the UK to Luxemburg, or South Africa. Something that clearly proves �the UK is well behind�. I mean real research.
Otherwise I will leave the last response to you. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
chronic shortage of housing
Is a piece about overcrowding in the UK. Does not compare the UK to Korea. |
�There no longer exists an overall housing shortage in Korea, as the number of houses exceeds that of households in the country as a whole�
http://www.keia.org/Publications/KoreasEconomy/2010/Choman.pdf
Bottom line: Huge housing shortage in the UK and an oversupply in Korea. Look at the statistics on outstanding mortgage debt as a percentage of GDP too, because outstanding mortgage debt in the UK is far more significant. Of course, this doesn�t mean that the housing market in Korea is free of problems, but by comparing the information we have about the housing market in Korea � like the number of new builds and supply - to the information on the UK housing market � significant housing shortages and under-housing � we can draw at least some conclusions.
| Quote: |
most lamentable area is educationIs a story about state school pupils doing well on the GCSE
Has nothing to do with any comparison between the UK and Korea. |
You conveniently missed the OECD findings that place Korea ahead of the UK in mathematics � by some margin, science and reading. Still, your own source (Legnum) placed Korea ahead of the UK anyway, so you don�t really have any grounds to disagree.
| Quote: |
And the fluff piece comparing the UK violence to South Africa.
Says nothing about UK vs. Korea |
The fluff stuff about South Africa was thrown in by another poster. The statistics, based on an EU Commission Report, suggest that there are 2000 violent crimes in the UK per 100,000 people, while your own source, comparing the US and Korea, suggests that there are slightly fewer than 500 violent crimes in Korea per 100,000 people. That�s a massive difference, and it is entirely in line with my qualitative experiences. Your second source also confirms a considerable difference between Korea and the UK too.
It�s noteworthy that you accuse Korea of having a �spotty� approach to law enforcement as well, because the same accusation is often leveled at the Crown Prosecution Service here too. I recall a Panorama (BBC) documentary for example which ran through a litany of cases where wife beaters and animal-like offenders were being issued with cautions instead of appearing before the courts. There are also some high profile cases where influential figures have not been prosecuted for crimes too � some where the evidence was beyond doubt.
| Quote: |
the hall of shame (public transport)
compares London to other European cities. Says nothing about the UK vs. Korea |
There is no piece of research to my knowledge that has directly compared the public transportation systems of Korea and the UK. In the absence of such research we have to look at all the available information at our disposal and attempt to construe it in a meaningful way and that of course draws on qualitative experiences too. That's what I did. Look at the facts: the UK has one of the worst public transport systems in Europe � and Europe covers a big area. So we can infer from this that the UK is not doing very well.
Now presumably you live in Korea � I lived in two Korean metropolitan cities for six years � so you have your own experiences of public transport to draw on too. Not once can I recall a single time when a train, bus, or subway train was late. The London Underground has a daily update rating the level of service on each line and I am not exaggerating when I say that delays and line suspensions are an almost daily occurrence. Now on any of the subway systems in Korea, this is just unimaginable; they just work. To a lesser degree the national rail network is also beset by the same kind of problems.
Look at the cost of public transport in the UK too. It boasts of the most expensive subway system in the world and the most expensive rail network in Europe. Train fares; bus fares; subway fares; coach fares: they are all considerably more expensive than in Korea, and while I don�t have a piece of research at my disposal which directly compares the cost of public transport in Korea and the UK, I have years and years of experience of both, so I just know how much they cost and I am telling you that the difference between fares is astronomical.
You have lived in Korea � and I presume the UK too � so you should have an idea just on account of your own qualitative experiences. If you look at the information available it is just not hard to fit the pieces together.
To sum things up, I think I have clearly shown the following:
1. The housing situation in Korea is much healthier than in the UK.
2. The public transportation system is significantly better - more efficient, modern and affordable - in Korea than the UK.
3. Education is better in Korea - according to your own source too.
4. Internet speed and cell phone networks are much better in Korea than the UK.
5. In Korea you are at much less significant risk of being the victim of a violent crime - an indicator of the health of society.
6. Teenage pregnancy rates - another indicator of the health of society - are way lower in Korea.
7. Korea's economy is on a significantly better trajectory than the economy of the UK.
8. Labour market conditions are much better in Korea than in the UK. |
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