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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| It is not impossible. Many states have state banks that lend for public infrastructure projects. Alberta has public bank as does North Dakota. China has been able to build at low cost with their public banks. |
North Dakota may have a state bank, but that doesn't mean that they don't borrow at interest.
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North Dakota local and state governments depend mainly on property-casualty insurers for capital. These insurers invest in public projects, such as water management, pollution control and hospital and housing construction. They also invest in general obligation bonds that are used to fund ongoing government operations. According to an analysis by A.M. Best, property-casualty insurers held $727.4 million (21% of the outstanding debt) municipal bonds
in 2007, in the state. |
http://www.economywatch.com/bonds/municipal/north-dakota-bonds.html |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Jay, are you a government employee? |
No. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I know that. The book Web of Debt gives an excellent overview of the history and structure of the bank. It would be extremely easy for them to cease borrowing from private sources. Which they should.
So, you're not a government employee. I ask because you seem to have a calmness about the economy and how it is organized. Among my friends and family those who are informed or curious about political economy all see the need for immense structural reform, except for the government employees. The gov employees don't seem all that worried. I work in finance/accounting and the firms I see are in horrible shape. I am, for lack of a better word, scared about the economic future, and it is not because I am uninformed. If significant improvement does not arrive soon many (most?) of the firms that I have knowledge of will fail. This is without consideration of the private equity time bomb, which really is a catastrophe right around the corner. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: ... |
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And Jay said he isn't worried?
You kind of selectively edited the Miami Ballpark info, no?
A bank in Alberta doesn't equal a Ron Paul majority in the US Congress, does it?
Do you have an achievable plan that doesn't start with an unachievable end? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Quote: |
| You kind of selectively edited the Miami Ballpark info, no? |
What did I edit. I took the whole finance section and copied it in.
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A bank in Alberta doesn't equal a Ron Paul majority in the US Congress, does it? |
Ron Paul is anti war. That is why I support him. My fake vote with go to Kuchinich too. Or anybody else that will stop the bombing of humans for no damn reason.
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| Do you have an achievable plan that doesn't start with an unachievable end? |
Yes. First things first, end the wars and empire. Then go after the bankers similar to the Savings and Loan scandal.
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| And Jay said he isn't worried? |
He doesn't say either way. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Yes, I know that. The book Web of Debt gives an excellent overview of the history and structure of the bank. It would be extremely easy for them to cease borrowing from private sources. Which they should.
So, you're not a government employee. I ask because you seem to have a calmness about the economy and how it is organized. Among my friends and family those who are informed or curious about political economy all see the need for immense structural reform, except for the government employees. The gov employees don't seem all that worried. I work in finance/accounting and the firms I see are in horrible shape. I am, for lack of a better word, scared about the economic future, and it is not because I am uninformed. If significant improvement does not arrive soon many (most?) of the firms that I have knowledge of will fail. This is without consideration of the private equity time bomb, which really is a catastrophe right around the corner. |
Immense structural reform may be a wonderful thing, but it should be considered in terms of what is realistically possible and what is realistically impossible. Not only is your proposal realistically impossible, I don't even agree that it is desirable. I don't share your fantasies about what is desirable and what is possible. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Ever wondered who the bondholders of Anglo Irish bank are that Ireland is bailing out?
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Anglo-Irish Bondholders Should Take the Losses
Is the ECB Forcing Ireland to Protect German Investments?
Anglo-Irish Bank did not represent a systemic risk to the Irish economy, it wasn�t a high street bank like AIB or the Bank of Ireland. If it had been allowed to go the way of Lehmans the only losers would have been shareholders and bondholders. The Irish state stepped in and nationalised a bank that was basically run by crooks lending to property speculators. The Irish people are taking losses that should rightly have been shouldered by bondholders.
Every child in Ireland is being bequeathed a huge debt at birth to protect the interests of foreign, mainly German, bondholders � why? Guido was once a bond trader, it was always understood that sometimes the bond issuer defaults. That is the risk investors take.
So why is Dublin�s political establishment so keen to protect foreign investors at the expense of future generations? Guido has obtained the list of foreign Anglo-Irish bondholders as at the close of business tonight. These are the people whom Dublin�s politicians really seem to care about:
http://orderorder.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/ai-bondholders.gif?w=480&h=623
Between them they hold Anglo-Irish bonds with a face-value of �4,034,756,880. Shouldn�t they take the hit rather than future generations of Irish taxpayers? Capitalism is a system of profit and loss, they took the risk of investing in Anglo-Irish Bank. Is the Irish government under pressure from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt to protect German investors?
http://order-order.com/2010/10/15/anglo-irish-bondholders-should-take-the-lossesis-the-ecb-forcing-ireland-to-protect-german-investments/ |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| jaykimf wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
Our governments should not borrow at interest from private interests. |
Maybe they should and maybe they shouldn't but if you really think there is any chance at all that they will stop borrowing at interest, you are completely out of touch with the real world. It ain't going to happen except maybe in your Utopian fantasy. |
Whoa. Like that. You just usurped mises' role as lead cynic and turned mises into a kind of dreamer. |
I'm realistic. Mises is unrealistic. And I don't agree that governments should not borrow at interest. |
Democratic governments can't handle borrowing at interest. They'll do it before raising taxes more often than not.
I agree with you in theory, but in practice . . . well, would you argue there isn't danger? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
Yes, I know that. The book Web of Debt gives an excellent overview of the history and structure of the bank. It would be extremely easy for them to cease borrowing from private sources. Which they should.
So, you're not a government employee. I ask because you seem to have a calmness about the economy and how it is organized. Among my friends and family those who are informed or curious about political economy all see the need for immense structural reform, except for the government employees. The gov employees don't seem all that worried. I work in finance/accounting and the firms I see are in horrible shape. I am, for lack of a better word, scared about the economic future, and it is not because I am uninformed. If significant improvement does not arrive soon many (most?) of the firms that I have knowledge of will fail. This is without consideration of the private equity time bomb, which really is a catastrophe right around the corner. |
Immense structural reform may be a wonderful thing, but it should be considered in terms of what is realistically possible and what is realistically impossible. Not only is your proposal realistically impossible, I don't even agree that it is desirable. I don't share your fantasies about what is desirable and what is possible. |
Then you must not be a fan of Krugman. Because a $5 trillion bailout wasn't remotely politically possible. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Yes, I know that. The book Web of Debt gives an excellent overview of the history and structure of the bank. It would be extremely easy for them to cease borrowing from private sources. Which they should.
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If it would be extremely easy for them to cease borrowing from private sources and it's something that they should do, Then why haven't they done it already? Maybe it's not as easy as you believe? Maybe the government doesn't agree with you that it should be done? Do you honestly believe that they are going to change their minds? Honestly, what do you estimate the probability to be that governments will stop borrowing at interest? I'd say about 0% chance of that happening. What's your guess? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: |
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I did not know that this site was changed into Dave's Obtainable Public Policy Cafe, as moderated by you.
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| what do you estimate the probability to be that governments |
You want a percent? Shall I post the calculation tree too?
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| Then why haven't they done it already? |
In the ATB example decades of pressure from the big Canadian banks have changed the role of ATB, up to the point that it was almost privatized. That's why. The banks own everything, including government. If you take everything away, with a keystroke, they'll create the credit to buy it back. That is a fact. That is why the biggest most beautiful building in every city house banks. The whole society sends tribute to private banks.
The US has had several experiences with non-debt money. The greenbacks were non-debt money. The system as it stands will end. Everything ends. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I did not know that this site was changed into Dave's Obtainable Public Policy Cafe, as moderated by you.
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LOL.
I'd join that forum, though. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Democratic governments can't handle borrowing at interest. They'll do it before raising taxes more often than not.
I agree with you in theory, but in practice . . . well, would you argue there isn't danger? |
Of course there is a danger that a government or an individual might make unwise decisions about how much debt they can afford. However the wise use of debt is perfectly reasonable. As an example, when a local government issues revenue bonds to finance the construction of a new school with the payment being financed by a rise in the property tax assessment, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. There are situations in which borrowing at interest is perfectly appropriate even though there are situations where it might be inappropriate. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I did not know that this site was changed into Dave's Obtainable Public Policy Cafe, as moderated by you.
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It's a discussion forum and I'm not moderating anything. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating my opinion that your proposal has no chance of being adopted. If my introduction of reality into the discussion has disturbed your daydream, I apologize. Feel free to continue with your fantasizing . I'll try and refrain from disturbing you with unpleasant facts. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| You have provided no facts. You've provided nothing other than oddly angry and arrogant "oh how can you believe such a fantasy". |
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