Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Homer]

HP...are you missing the point on purpose?

We are not saying the E-2 is all roses or that no teachers get cheated.

We are saying English teachers in Korea are NOT slaves.

See the difference?

Talk about paint by numbers....you got the set that goes 1-2-55-3-67-4...

[humanuspneumos]

You're attempts at painting "No Form of Slavery!" in Korea slide down a hill where the three of you have fallen into a hole together in your 0 %- ism. And- there's a suspicious amount of damage control going on that leads me to thinx- there's some recruiting going on in them thar hills.


Dear Mr. Humanus Pneumos,

We are writing this letter to inform you that in the ROK there is absolutely nothing that resembles, comes close to, can be equated with modern day forms of slavery or mastery. Also- we would like to inform you that the instances you cite as human rights abuses are rare and wish for you to discontinue damaging our recruiting efforts and our attempts at continuing to live behind rose-stained-glasses. We do however regret that some teachers have experienced difficulty. As for their personal testimonials of being threatened, cheated, banned, manipulated, and some beat- we must again assert that there may very well be something wrong with such teachers and counsel you ignore their complaints as over-stated. In no way should TESL in the ROK be equated to slavery or a locus-of-operation regarding modern definitions or modes of slavery. It just doesn't exist.


Best Regards,


Gord, Homer, TUM


Attention: Public Relations Department

Retain a copy of this form letter in the complaints file.


You guys should work for Korean Airlines

[TheUrbanMyth]

Methinks the lady does protest too much"

Sure you are not a recruiter out to eliminate the competition?

Sorry to destroy your fantasy world in which every teacher who comes to the ROK is a qualified professional and never does anything wrong. And oh yes, when fired would NEVER dream of posting exaggerated or even false claims on some particular blacklist. Let's look at the blacklists shall we? We see a few hundred teachers. Yet there are thousands (I've heard 8-10 thousand) working in the ROK. If we assume that 50% of the blacklist complaints are true, it would seem that that number is a small minority. And most blacklists complain about missing pay, NOT about slavery.

BTW, I can't speak for Mr. Gord or Mr. Homer, but I am not a recruiter and never have been. Just a real teacher and a mature person who doesn't need his hand held by some foreign teacher association.

Oh and if some particular individual happened to be your friend but a piss-poor teacher, would you still support him if the boss decided to fire him? Would you do this in the West? If he is losing students (being deterimental to the business) doesn't the boss have this right?

[TheUrbanMyth]

[humanuspneumos]

who doesn't need his hand held by some foreign teacher association.

Come-come now TUB- whatever made you think I'm implying you're a sissy?

I might have implied in another post that people who brown-nose and weasel their way over the heads of other teachers are the truest form of sissy-ism. You wouldn't do that- would you?

And- I'm not sure- where in this thread I mention a "foreign teacher association" or even in my "band" post. I was only speaking of a in-office-micro-cosm of "power in numbers." A very basic form of math if you sit down with your pencil. Or should I assume when facing masser you like to go-it-alone? Or nobody would care to join someone with rose-stained-glasses? "It's-sa dem masser. Dem humanuspneumosis dat er cosin all da troble."

Come-on TUB, not everybody is as weak as you would like to make them out to be. That's just uncalled for.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[TheUrbanMyth]

[humanuspneumos]

Why could I see that coming from a mile away? I guess because I used to play this kind of ping-pong with Austin (RIP). And now you're going to say if I make use of a movie script- like lets say- Forest Gump- I'm making fun of all people with learning disabilities. Nope. It's a ploy of communication to set you into familiar TV-land to get a point across.


I will give you credit for sticking with your guns- but when the crazy-glue hits the fan you'll find that this freedom you speak of doesn't exist in the measure you imagine. It's all words until the fat lady sings.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[rapier]

"Slavery" springs to mind as a ready and handy analogy, nothing more. I'm not arguing that teaching here is de facto "slavery". Nobody is forced to teach at gunpoint or led from the classroom in chains. Of course the argument is unsustainable and silly. We can't compare ourselves to negroes in the deep south a long time ago.

I would however argue that the situation here, is not exactly freedom either. Its somewhere between the two. Let me just illustrate the life of a typical newbie here to show why:
* newbie is lured and trafficked into Northeast Asia, with tempting promises of lots of money and wonderful work conditions, by subtly misleading internet advertising.
*newbie is told that it is necessary to hand over his original certificates for visa processing. Employer makes excuses to keep them.
*newbie is promised return airfare. But this is actually only provided at directors discretion, upon contract completion. Newbie has to at least save enough for flight out if he wants to escape.
*newbie's promised contract is altered and changed after arrival.Protest, yes: but any sign of compromise from the director? no.
*newbies wages are deducted for accomodation deposit. This money is held more or less as a bargaining chip.
* newbie threatens to quit if contractual obligations are not met. Director threatens to keep money owed (including last paycheck) and certificates, *Director locks employee out of appartment abruptly, forfeiting his/her property (seen it happen).
*director lies to immigration, refuses to sign release letter, sabotaging E2 visa. Does not provide return flight home.
And so on....
NO, its not "SLAVERY" in its purest definition, there are no whips or forced starvation. But it certainly ain't a free and comfortable condition to work under either, in this the 21st century.
How about the term "semi slave" or "borderline slave". I think we could argue that pretty effectively.

[Homer]

Human,

Your theory has now hit rock bottom.
Urban and I have tried to discuss things with you and have brought forth solid arguments pretty much proving that English teachers are not slave.

Now, you insist on wanting to spue forth this rotten cabbage soup you call a point thats cool.

Keep on going you revolutionnary you. Fight the "massers" and keep on conveniently forgetting a) basic facts and b) The fact that you are gainfully employed here (which of course means you are not a slave).

Finally, the next time you want to use the blacklists-greylists as "proof" to support your slave claim perhaps you should keep in mind Urbans point about them and about what they contain.

No one here is claiming 0%-ism (whatever that is).
We do not deny that some teachers get cheated or misstreated. Never did. Not once.
You however conveniently forget to mention the many teachers who come here with zero qualifications and zero intent on working hard.
These teachers either sail right on through and pass go every month or midnight run leaving others on the lurch.
What about those human? Oh wait..nevermind you admiting to this would require you making some sense and having a sense of logic.

As for recruiting and calling us recruiters thats just a sign your grasping at straws.

I have had my share of bad times and a bad boss. I quite, got him to give me a release letter and am still here 4 years later.
I have a good job, many Korean friends and and quite at ease living here.
In fact, another proof that we are in no way slaves lies in here.

Yes indeed Human...would a slave:

Be able to mingle with the "masters"?
Would he or she be treated like a friend by them?
Would he or she have access to their clubs, gyms, movie theaters, public transit and even (gasp) public baths?
Would he or she be permitted to fly out of the country and then come back?
Would a member of the "master class" marry such a slave?

The list goes on and as each question is answered by "no" so does your little theory sink deeper under water. Next stop rock bottom.

Rapier, that was an interesting post. I disagree that even the semi-slave analogy would work but you at the very least expressed your self in a way that shows you are open minded about debating.

[shawner88]

My boss is a nice guy, yet I've seen what he turns into when teachers quit. A Korea teacher left 2 months notice after having worked there 2 years. She was going to Australia for a few months. During the rest of her stay he had countless meetings with her begging her to stay, offers of pay, lowering her class load, etc...when she still refused, he turned ugly and ignored her for the last 2 months and didn't go to her farewell dinner.

If I were to quit, I wouldn't tell him. It's not worth the headache and stress of 30 days, wondering if you're gonna get pay, and feeling like everyone suddenly hates you.

[humanuspneumos]

You should listen to Shawner and Rapier- heads up guys. They're making a good point:


Point: Things start as something. Things move to something. Just because they started as something doesn't define the whole moment. Just because they moved to something doesn't deny how it all started- "Welcome to Fantasy Island! My name is Mr. K and this is my assistant Mr. Tah-too. smile, smile"

I'd hate to see Gord, Homer, and TUM knit me a sweater. It seems to me at this point that you would knit a sweater the size of my thumbnail and expect me to put it on- "see, there's your sweater- it's really a sweater-put it on. It's your sweater as you described it."

I'd also hate to have you as my boss in any kind of computer gaming program- suppose one day we decide we're going to make a computer game called- "ROK ESL Slave" - you'd have the character chained to the poll the whole time level 1-12 just to match the theme and graphics out-come to your small world-view. How boring- how dreadfully boring. Myself- the character would be moving in and out of traps/freedoms all through the game from level one to twelve. Why the character was there in the first place wouldn't matter as much as he was there and had to make his way to the end of the game as an effective teacher who loved teaching.

In this thing called TESL ROK- I have given ample examples to illustrate that my approach to it all isn't a tightly knit- super-small sweater. Rather I used as many forms-examples to illustrate that it's not all going to be a monolith or monolithic slavery as you wish I would. It's like a swimming pool where pockets of warm water exists. Under the E-2 teachers hit those pockets of slavism/mastery. ROK TESL under the E2 isn't slated on the schedule as 24/7. It happens when it happens. It's all part-and-parcel- as Rapier and Shawner point out- beginning and end- within a very large context of events and stimuli.

I suppose if a soldier rested on the grass, ate an Oh Henry chocolate bar TUM, Homer, and Gord might want to annouce- there is no war. Or ask him- "Why are you a soldier if you describe war the way you do? Why?

That makes you a cold-blooded-murderer. You're either a murdering B for being here or you aren't- which is it? You're the one who signed-up!" Some soldiers become judges of themselves in such symantical bantering and do jump over the fence and run away- some don't. Such splicing/symantical games always end with such questions.

So far we have degrees stated in this "debate" - yes- it's still a debate.


Gord, Homer, TUM say- 0 % - 0 % can be described as slavery or semi-slavery

Tokki and Rapier use "analogy" and Rapier "semi-slavery"

Humanus Pneumos: venus's-fly-trap mastery/slavism (2004) not (1700)

[humanuspneumos]

A. Thunndarr
You do realize that slavery wasn't restricted soley to ante-bellum South in the United States right?

I mean, just because some people only associate slavery with the plight of Africans in the U.S. does not mean that they were the only group of slaves ever.

Now that we'eve established that there are or were different groups of slaves over the course of human history, can I postulate that it seems likely that their situations may actually have had subtle or not-so-subtle degrees of difference?

So, now we agree that slavery can mean different things in different situations. However, perhaps a common theme would be that slaves have very little control over their own life and live in constant fear of being screwed over by someone in authority. (Screwed over=purposely vague term, use your imagination.)

So, depending on your definition of slavery, English teachers can fit the bill quite nicely, albeit we are far from being as powerless as certain historical instances of slavery.

B. Wishmaster

Hey Rapier...I'm on your side. I agree all the way. They basically handcuff you here and then expect you to play by their rules even as they wrong you. Don't listen to these other fools...Stick to your guns......

And it's really hard not to wonder just how much of this BS would melt away overnight if foreign workers here just had the freedom to quit their jobs at their own discretion, without having to beg for permission to work in Korea again.

C. Son Deureo

Maybe the slavery comparisons are a bit strong, but who gives a damn? It's graphic imagery used to make a point on a message board, not a petition to the UN Human Rights Commission.

D. Bosintang

And yet at the same time, is there any *official* way of leaving your job without a release letter? Praying that your immigration official has had his breakfast that morning and feels some compassion towards you isn't exactly a solid policy.

E. crazylemongirl

not true. in a lot of countries you just need to qualify for a work visa and then you own it for X amount of time and work for who you want.

F. Rapier

NO, its not "SLAVERY" in its purest definition, there are no whips or forced starvation. But it certainly ain't a free and comfortable condition to work under either, in this the 21st century.

How about the term "semi slave" or "borderline slave". I think we could argue that pretty effectively.


A. Yes- I'm using terms like "masser" and so on as a point of strong communication- however- Thunndarr makes my point- don't get hung on accusing me of saying it's the ante-belum South. I'm not. Thunndarr is trying to help you see- there is another way.

B. Wishmaster is right- they do basically bind and expect you to play by THEIR rules.

C. Son Deureo makes me beg the question Gord, Homer, TUM- do you get the point?

D. Bonsintang begs the question- if we are so freeeeeeee- why is it called a "Release" letter. Released from what? Released from who? I suppose since the three of you are so free you just write your own.

E. Crazylemongirl- work for who you want- sounds like freedom. Wonder what the opposite of that is- oh- the E2.

F. Rapier- that's right- it's the 21st century. So why do the three of you- Gord, Homer, TUM keep falling back to the 16th and 17th century and try to drag me along with you as though I'm saying it's that. It's not.

[Gord]