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sluggo832004
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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 Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I did not say a degree in English Junior. I said a degree in Education, Pedagory, Andragogy or Teaching English as a Second Language. A degree in English Litt is not necessarily an asset to teach English. I agree with a previous poster who said a Degree in English is the same as most other social science degrees when it comes to its impact on teaching English effectively. |
However there is no point in having the best teaching techniques in the world, if you have a poor knowledge of the subject which you are supposed to be teaching.
I don't want to be arrogant... but after my years of studying english literature and language, its fairly obvious I know more about English, its grammar rules and correct expression than someone with a random social science degree.
Next you're going to suggest that someone with a degree in German makes a better teacher of english than someone with a degree in English.
If I were you, I'd do a masters in English (to add to your BA in basketry) ..before you attempt to teach the language again. |
From my teaching experience I usually see the opposite happen. Alot of teachers with a wealth of knowledge cant relate that knowledge to the students.
One of the first things in Teaching is classroom management. If you cant manage a classroom, you wont be able to teach the kids anyway. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
If I were you, I'd do a masters in English (to add to your BA in basketry) ..before you attempt to teach the language again. |
Seems like an attempt to lure Paddy into setting forth another exhaustive overview of his paper holdings and other.
Please, Junior, have mercy on souls like myself who know it by heart!! |
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Stalin84
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Haebangchon, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
logically this makes perfect sense.
Except I've met many teachers stateside who were obviously educated and trained as you note who had the charismas and inspirational abilities of a rock. They were basically dopes (or dopettes).
It takes some innate qualities and personality traits to be a good teacher, those things, like speed and height cannot be "taught".
p.s. some of them were also alarmingly dumb outside of their own little niches of teaching. Some English teachers probably struggled with fundamental algrebra. 2+x= 4. What's x? |
I've met hundreds of people like this.
In university, I dated an older chick for a month or so that was almost done her PhD and was on the road to becoming a licensed Psychiatrist.
Every time we watched a movie I had to explain what was going on like she was two, she didn't know anything about politics or history or the world in general, she didn't seem to be passionate about anything... one time we played board games and I had to teach her how to play checkers and chess because she had never heard of either. She was like that about EVERYTHING.
Yet she never got below A on any written assignment or test in her entire life. I used to joke around about her getting a B+ and killing herself.
She's an extreme example but we've all met tonnes of "smart" people similar to this. It reminds me of the movie "Stupidity" where Noam Chomsky is interviewed and says that he believes his car mechanic has more intelligence than half of his colleagues at MIT.
The moral of the story is that academic success and actual intelligence are VERY loosely correlated. |
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jzrossef
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Stalin84 wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
logically this makes perfect sense.
Except I've met many teachers stateside who were obviously educated and trained as you note who had the charismas and inspirational abilities of a rock. They were basically dopes (or dopettes).
It takes some innate qualities and personality traits to be a good teacher, those things, like speed and height cannot be "taught".
p.s. some of them were also alarmingly dumb outside of their own little niches of teaching. Some English teachers probably struggled with fundamental algrebra. 2+x= 4. What's x? |
I've met hundreds of people like this.
In university, I dated an older chick for a month or so that was almost done her PhD and was on the road to becoming a licensed Psychiatrist.
Every time we watched a movie I had to explain what was going on like she was two, she didn't know anything about politics or history or the world in general, she didn't seem to be passionate about anything... one time we played board games and I had to teach her how to play checkers and chess because she had never heard of either. She was like that about EVERYTHING.
Yet she never got below A on any written assignment or test in her entire life. I used to joke around about her getting a B+ and killing herself.
She's an extreme example but we've all met tonnes of "smart" people similar to this. It reminds me of the movie "Stupidity" where Noam Chomsky is interviewed and says that he believes his car mechanic has more intelligence than half of his colleagues at MIT.
The moral of the story is that academic success and actual intelligence are VERY loosely correlated. |
This is the direction where Korean education, and Japanese too I hear, is going. Many international students here are amazing at test taking skills, memorization with incredibly structured discipline... but fail horribly at other things outside of academia. (Ex. interviews, coop terms, adapting... and so on) I don't really blame them too much though... they spent their whole life dedicating themselves to be like this since their childhood.
Unfortunately, this is the reality Korea will be stuck with for long long time. There are simply too many students trying to get professional job with their post-secondary education, and they simple have to resort to extreme ways to cut the numbers. Many Koreans dedicate their life believing that hard work, discipline and the will will eventually prevail... only to learn that market's supply and demand is probably going to determine your job prospect. So many believed that being a doctor is the highest achievement you can make, only to figure out that Korean government allowed too many students into med... and we see a grim reality now, where even a qualified doctors accepting patients for few thousand wons to survive. (Some even going bankrupted)
That's just a general trend though. There are few smart cookies with enough financial luxury to do all that and have enough time to watch the world news, read more open-minded books and maybe even have a luxury to go out and see what the world is really like. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, a degree in andragogy is directly related to teaching methodology and skills.
However there is no point in having the best teaching techniques in the world, if you have a poor knowledge of the subject which you are supposed to be teaching.
I don't want to be arrogant... but after my years of studying english literature and language, its fairly obvious I know more about English, its grammar rules and correct expression than someone with a random social science degree.
Next you're going to suggest that someone with a degree in German makes a better teacher of english than someone with a degree in English.
If I were you, I'd do a masters in English (to add to your BA in basketry) ..before you attempt to teach the language again. |
Ok junior, since you either are willingly miss reading what I wrote, do not understand it or simply missed the point I will go slower for you and actually spell it out...
I DID not talk about a SOCIAL SCIENCE degree increasing the odds of a someone being a good teacher. I talked about degrees in EDUCATION, PEDAGOGY (thats theories of learning in case you get confused), ANDRAGOGY (thats pedagogy for adult learners in case you get confused) or TEACHING ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE.
Now each of these degrees will mean the person has some training and education related to TEACHING.
The last of these means the person has training and education in the field of TEACHING ENGLISH.
None of those degrees are RANDOM SOCIAL SCIENCE DEGREES.
The funny things is that a degree in English Litt is A RANDOM SOCIAL SCIENCE DEGREE that can however provide some useful knowledge. It provides you with NEARLY NOTHING in the way of HOW to deliver effective lessons, provide a environment where students learn, organizing lessons, grading effectively.
As for your pathetic attempt at insulting my qualifications they were amusing. So just to be clear, my BA is in History, along with a Teachers College degree that got me certification. Later I added a MA in EDUCATION as it was something I felt I needed to go further. Over the years I also completed various certificates, some related to TEFL-ESL. I just like to learn I guess.
Next time you take a shot at someone, just make sure you choose your target better. Have a good one out there Junior. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jzrossef wrote: |
This is the direction where Korean education, and Japanese too I hear, is going. Many international students here are amazing at test taking skills, memorization with incredibly structured discipline... but fail horribly at other things outside of academia. (Ex. interviews, coop terms, adapting... and so on) I don't really blame them too much though... they spent their whole life dedicating themselves to be like this since their childhood.
Unfortunately, this is the reality Korea will be stuck with for long long time. There are simply too many students trying to get professional job with their post-secondary education, and they simple have to resort to extreme ways to cut the numbers. Many Koreans dedicate their life believing that hard work, discipline and the will will eventually prevail... only to learn that market's supply and demand is probably going to determine your job prospect. So many believed that being a doctor is the highest achievement you can make, only to figure out that Korean government allowed too many students into med... and we see a grim reality now, where even a qualified doctors accepting patients for few thousand wons to survive. (Some even going bankrupted)
That's just a general trend though. There are few smart cookies with enough financial luxury to do all that and have enough time to watch the world news, read more open-minded books and maybe even have a luxury to go out and see what the world is really like. |
True. However, I disagree with your point that it's a trend where Korea and Japan are going. They've already been down that path, in fact it's what has distinguished education from pre school to university in both countries for years.
Rote memorisation, test passing technique, listening to teacher is what school is about. Koreans and Japanese generally have poor lateral thinking skills, can't write essays well (although when they study abroad they get passed when they don't deserve it in many western countries because of the high fees they pay), can't engage in a debate where logic is paramount and as long as you can justify a view then your view is acceptable, can't pull together different theories and opinions and make an overall judgement of them, synthesising them to make a thesis, etc.
While there are western students who don't do well at those things, it's not like they're denied opportunities to be good at them. The Korean and Japanese education systems teach that there is a right and wrong answer for everything. Their multiple choice testing is a joke - on a lucky day a poor student or one who has done absolutely zero to prepare can hit the target enough to pass by guesswork.
Koreans tend to think scores around 85 and below are poor - they honestly don't understand that other education systems don't give 90 to 100 percent as a matter of course because it's much harder to get that kind of score when you're having to think laterally and prove you understand a concept and can express that.
I think the situation is worse in Korea because it's not entering the heads of people whose grandparents were dirt poor and whose great grandparents and beyond mostly lived in deep ignorance and poverty outside the golden barriers of the elites, that it should be fine to not go to university. There are always other options but generally Koreans do not want to admit their children aren't equipped to go to university and enter a profession.
At least the Japanese do not send their children to ludicrously over priced cram schools at the rate that Koreans do. If you do not belong to the professional classes in Japan or do not have the kind of employment that allows you to pay for their cram schools, generally Japanese will not spend money they don't have on their version of hagwons. In Korea, Korean families who shouldn't be sending their kids to hagwons because they can't afford it are going into debt for it. Hagwons generally are much more expensive in Korea than in Japan,
I knew a fair few kids at my last school who shouldn't have gone to hagwons because their parents weren't earning the kind of money to justify it and those kids weren't going to end up at one of the really good schools.
I know a kid whose mother is a single mother (a recipe for poverty in Korea unless you're a working professional or better) and she sent her daughter to hagwons the last 2 years of middle school despite her daughter being intelligent but not in the standard exam passing way. Her daughter now goes to a technical high school but the mother is still paying for a hagwon - what's the point? The point is she is keeping up appearances, a very Korean trait.  |
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ippy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I dont mind that people with degrees relating to the job get fantastic teaching jobs and higher rates of pay. I, with my philosophy degree, and honest dislike of english grammar (and no real aptitude for learning a foreign language) will settle for being the assistant language teacher that may OCCASIONALLY (according to my contract) have to teach classes. Although im old enough in the tooth to know what may means in contract language, i d be nothing short of happy to be given my pay for being a cute little dehumanised decoration with absolutely no classroom responsibility.
Im not saying this to be a jerk, but to say YES!!! I understand you qualified teachers! I think you should get better pay too!
I also think you should get better pay because theres no honest way in hell that theyd fill the positions  So theyd have to fill it with leaches like me... so in the long run, one more rung added to the pay scale ladder means one more incentive for me to make ESL a career instead of a semi-vacation lifestyle.
Man, i love this job in all sincerity I really like the kids too. Theyre so sweet in rural south west korea |
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ippy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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PS. In japan they might not send their kids to hagwons at the same level (there are no hagwons - only eikaiwa). But they DO send their kids to Juku.
Which is actually a hagwon if 'hagwon' meant quality institution of teaching using professionally qualified teachers and not just some place where they bus in foreigners to babysit your kids.
I jest, if you put juku and eikaiwa together youd probably have the same scope as korea. Youd also have the same wide variations of quality. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Read my post again. I mention juku - Japanese cram schools. True, there are also eikaiwa but your point is what? I've worked in Japan and I found there that japanese parents generally do not send their kids to after school schools for prestige. Many Koreans feel they must send their kids to hagwons (juku variety, eikaiwa variety) to keep up with the Lees.
They spend more money on this kind of education than the Japanese and going into debt to do so is the choice of some of them, even when it's hardly worth it to look as if you've got more money than you have. I didn't see the snobbery element in Japanese after school education the way I have seen it in Korea. |
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douglaswilliam
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:48 am Post subject: yes |
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| I have almost 3 years' experience, I'm currently here, and I'm having a hell of a time. It doesn't help that I'm expecting a kid and need to have higher standards than I did when single... but still... damn! |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Are you enjoying your job? It would be stressful if you hated it but couldn't quit because of family responsibilities. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Stalin84 wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
logically this makes perfect sense.
Except I've met many teachers stateside who were obviously educated and trained as you note who had the charismas and inspirational abilities of a rock. They were basically dopes (or dopettes).
It takes some innate qualities and personality traits to be a good teacher, those things, like speed and height cannot be "taught".
p.s. some of them were also alarmingly dumb outside of their own little niches of teaching. Some English teachers probably struggled with fundamental algrebra. 2+x= 4. What's x? |
I've met hundreds of people like this.
In university, I dated an older chick for a month or so that was almost done her PhD and was on the road to becoming a licensed Psychiatrist.
Every time we watched a movie I had to explain what was going on like she was two, she didn't know anything about politics or history or the world in general, she didn't seem to be passionate about anything... one time we played board games and I had to teach her how to play checkers and chess because she had never heard of either. She was like that about EVERYTHING.
Yet she never got below A on any written assignment or test in her entire life. I used to joke around about her getting a B+ and killing herself.
She's an extreme example but we've all met tonnes of "smart" people similar to this. It reminds me of the movie "Stupidity" where Noam Chomsky is interviewed and says that he believes his car mechanic has more intelligence than half of his colleagues at MIT.
The moral of the story is that academic success and actual intelligence are VERY loosely correlated. |
well, now consider the following:
how many academic achievers or truly bright people do you know that go into the fields PatrickGHBusan talks about.. education, pedagogy, TEFL, etc (this isn't a slam at Patrick)
I don't know about you but the Education Depts at unis aroun where I'm from aren't exactly full of the brightest bulbs in the drawer.
(btw. I'd be intrinsically scared of anyone with a degree in Pedagogy in a Western country, due to the "feminization" of taught and rigidly enforced thoughts on discipline, boy play, "violence" etc. )
I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I have had and met some truly good and very intelligent and knowledgeable teachers.
but I've also met a certain amount of big time dopes/dopettes and borderline idiots. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
ANDRAGOGY (thats pedagogy for adult learners in case you get confused) |
Must be a big word for you i see. Hoping to impress?
| Quote: |
| It provides you with NEARLY NOTHING in the way of HOW to deliver effective lessons, provide a environment where students learn, organizing lessons, grading effectively. |
Sure, that is the property of a teaching qualification. I never stated that an English degree was about teaching methodology, did I?
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| So just to be clear, my BA is in History |
Hardly useful to an expert knowledge of English language is it? You have the equivalent of a certificate in tapestry.
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| Later I added a MA in EDUCATION as it was something I felt I needed to go further. |
Studying education does not give you a specialist knowledge in English though does it?
As I said before...the best teaching credentials in the world are useless if you have no expertise in the subject you are supposed to be teaching.
| Quote: |
| Over the years I also completed various certificates, some related to TEFL-ESL. |
But no actual TEFL-ESL ones?
At best you are qualified to teach History... nothing more. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Junior, you are hopeless.
So to end this: yes you are right I am only qualified to teach History. The MA in Education has no relevance, nor do the certificates (some in TEFL as I said).
Your BA in English Litt is far superior.
I was not aiming to impress, I was hoping you had an ounce of honesty. Clearly you do not and clearly you have issues and frustrations you need to project on others.
Enjoy the Hakwon-PS circuit super teacher.  |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Enjoy the Hakwon-PS circuit super teacher. |
A latent contempt for the overwhelming majority of teachers in Korea. |
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