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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| I don't get it. Amazon is a business, it can sell or not sell whatever it wants. This is a non-issue. |
Yes, it can. And if it pulls a book from sale, according to Amazon itself, it is censorship. Hence the title of this thread.
mises, got a source for that Freud quote?
Anyway, what I do know is that the argument for free speech goes for both sides. There is a right to say whatever and the right to argue against it. It is when the speech takes away the right to hear one or the other side that it becomes most important. The answer to speech that is disliked is more speech about what is liked, not to remove the former. |
Amazon isn't preventing the author from expressing himself, they simply aren't empowering the author by providing him a platform upon which to sell his books. I don't think this is a free-speech issue. Refusing to aid someone in getting their message across is not in my eyes ethically equivalent to gagging them.
The author of this book (or any book; I don't know anything about the specific book in question, and my case is general in nature) should be free of any government restriction in expressing his ideas. No one should be forced to aid him in the dissemination of his ideas, though. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
Yes, it can. And if it pulls a book from sale, according to Amazon itself, it is censorship. Hence the title of this thread.
...
Anyway, what I do know is that the argument for free speech goes for both sides. There is a right to say whatever and the right to argue against it. It is when the speech takes away the right to hear one or the other side that it becomes most important. The answer to speech that is disliked is more speech about what is liked, not to remove the former. |
Amazon isn't preventing the author from expressing himself, they simply aren't empowering the author by providing him a platform upon which to sell his books. I don't think this is a free-speech issue. Refusing to aid someone in getting their message across is not in my eyes ethically equivalent to gagging them.
The author of this book (or any book; I don't know anything about the specific book in question, and my case is general in nature) should be free of any government restriction in expressing his ideas. No one should be forced to aid him in the dissemination of his ideas, though. |
While not empowering this author, I think we can agree that they are certainly not furthering the cause of free speech by their action. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
Yes, it can. And if it pulls a book from sale, according to Amazon itself, it is censorship. Hence the title of this thread.
...
Anyway, what I do know is that the argument for free speech goes for both sides. There is a right to say whatever and the right to argue against it. It is when the speech takes away the right to hear one or the other side that it becomes most important. The answer to speech that is disliked is more speech about what is liked, not to remove the former. |
Amazon isn't preventing the author from expressing himself, they simply aren't empowering the author by providing him a platform upon which to sell his books. I don't think this is a free-speech issue. Refusing to aid someone in getting their message across is not in my eyes ethically equivalent to gagging them.
The author of this book (or any book; I don't know anything about the specific book in question, and my case is general in nature) should be free of any government restriction in expressing his ideas. No one should be forced to aid him in the dissemination of his ideas, though. |
While not empowering this author, I think we can agree that they are certainly not furthering the cause of free speech by their action. |
I don't think they're furthering free speech, but I also don't think they're really interacting with it at all. If the writer wants people to have access to his words, he can put his writing on the internet for free, and anyone who wants to read it can read it. His book being sold on Amazon.com is a matter of financial compensation rather than giving people access, which is why I am as untroubled by this as I am. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like Amazon messed up big this time.
By removing the book from its listings, they have accidentally made it more popular than it should be- provided the cover is actually what appears in the book.
It's not exactly a free-speech offense, but it can be seen in the overall context of modern events. Someone posts something on the internet someone else doesn't like, that someone else gets a cadre/posse together and declares (rightfully or otherwise) jihad against the company (which may or may be innocent). A media mess ensues and someone gets hurt in some manner.
So in the future, you'll see more restrictions on Amazon regarding book content/titles.
Of course, now the author is free to sell his book on Ebay or Gmarket or anywhere else, or even distribute via torrents. But now, he has an audience with an overeager imagination.
Bad publicity is better than no publicity. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
Looks like Amazon messed up big this time.
By removing the book from its listings, they have accidentally made it more popular than it should be- provided the cover is actually what appears in the book.
It's not exactly a free-speech offense, but it can be seen in the overall context of modern events. Someone posts something on the internet someone else doesn't like, that someone else gets a cadre/posse together and declares (rightfully or otherwise) jihad against the company (which may or may be innocent). A media mess ensues and someone gets hurt in some manner.
So in the future, you'll see more restrictions on Amazon regarding book content/titles.
Of course, now the author is free to sell his book on Ebay or Gmarket or anywhere else, or even distribute via torrents. But now, he has an audience with an overeager imagination.
Bad publicity is better than no publicity. |
Exactly. These jihadists don't realize that their idiotic efforts are counterproductive. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: |
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The author has now been arrested.
Phillip Greaves II, author of pedophile book, faces obscenity charges in Polk County
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Winter Haven, Florida -- A Colorado man who self-published a book called "The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure: A Child-Lover's Code of Conduct" now faces obscenity charges in Polk County.
On Monday morning, Polk Sheriff Grady Judd announced Phillip R. Greaves II was arrested in Pueblo, Colorado on charges out of Polk County. Greaves, 47, is charged with distribution of obscene material depicting minors engaged in conduct harmful to minors, a third degree felony. |
Note that he was charged with distribution of obscene material. What about all the copies sold through Amazon? Shouldn't Jeff Bezos and all his minions also be charged with the crime, at least as accessories or accomplices?
The irony in all this is that in the book the author advises pedophiles to live within the law! Bizarre, and dangerous for the First Amendment. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Throw him in jail with general population.
The guy wrote a book about screwing kids. Maybe this makes me an old curmudgeon prude, but not screwing kids seems to me to be an entirely reasonable prohibition. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Throw him in jail with general population.
The guy wrote a book about screwing kids. Maybe this makes me an old curmudgeon prude, but not screwing kids seems to me to be an entirely reasonable prohibition. |
Kill joy. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
I don't see people getting upset about a guide on how to molest children as being such a ridiculous thing. In fact it is quite reasonable.
Self censorship is not a bad thing at all. Maybe you should try it sometime. 
All kidding aside. I don't see the issue with a group of people upset about something voicing their concern and enacting change. I'm pretty sure that is what our country is founded on. If I recall correctly, leading up to the revolution there was only a small number of people (the richest and whitest) who wanted to actually fight Britain.
I think it would be a good idea to write Amazon and tell them what you think of their services. I write companies all the time if I am unhappy with them. Often, I get a call, an explanation, an apology, a change in policy, something for free or a great deal! If not, I don't patronize their companies anymore. The $ speaks loudest.
I used to work retail at a large department store a few years ago to earn some extra scratch. I was using their shop online service one day and I happened across a number of anime porn movies that were being sold by a 3rd party vendor. I told my manager and within 48 hours, the movies disappeared from the website. I felt pretty good about finding that because it might have saved our company some embarrassment. As you know, Amazon is full of 3rd party vendors. It is easy for things to slip through the cracks that go against their company policies. First, it doesn't mean they should be crucified for it. Second, self censorship is not even news worthy.
Edit: One other thought...would you be ok with censoring the people who want to censor things?? |
No. Freedom of speech is absolute.
The issue here is not that difficult to grasp. At the end of the day Amazon said that pulling the book off its online store would be censorship, and then that is exactly what they did. |
There was no violation of freedom of speech. The author is allowed to write, publish, and distribute his book.
Or are you saying Amazon should be forced to sell his book?
Freedom of Speech also means you have the Freedom not to sell opinions you disagree with.
And no, Freedom of Speech is not absolute. You can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| You can't yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. |
Kill joy. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I was incensed when I read about this. Well, incensed and embarrassed.
Yes, his book was disgusting. Yes, Amazon, a private retailer, had every right to refuse to sell his book. But for the government to step in and arrest him for writing a f%^*ing book... that is far more disgusting than the actual book. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
I was incensed when I read about this. Well, incensed and embarrassed.
Yes, his book was disgusting. Yes, Amazon, a private retailer, had every right to refuse to sell his book. But for the government to step in and arrest him for writing a f%^*ing book... that is far more disgusting than the actual book. |
Yes, your latter point is the crux of the issue.
As far as the Amazon is concerned, it is such a big operation, that more responsibilities attach to it, sort of like the phone company. They cannot just arbitrarily decide to whom to give service. If it were just some small independent bookstore, I'd agree with you, but not when it is one with such an overwhelming internet presence.
As far as the book itself goes, it is much ado about nothing. The author actually admonishes pedophiles to live within the law. |
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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:48 am Post subject: |
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It wasn't Amazon that suppressed free speech. A bunch of people got together and pretty much bullied Amazon into pulling the book. It's like suppression of free speech by mob mentality.
I'm not really comfortable with this book either but I don't know if banning it is the solution. I haven't really seen a description of what the book is about either. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| It wasn't Amazon that suppressed free speech. A bunch of people got together and pretty much bullied Amazon into pulling the book. It's like suppression of free speech by mob mentality. |
Amazon has been through such battles many times in the past. Why this time did they not stick to their guns?
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| I'm not really comfortable with this book either |
I recommend that you not buy the book then.
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| but I don't know if banning it is the solution. |
Of course it is not. What if I had a list of books I didn't want available, and you had your list, and everyone had his list to submit to Amazon? There'd be nothing left to read.
Do people not see what is wrong with arresting someone for writing a book? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Or they just have a healthy understanding of the potential of bad press. |
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