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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Mosley wrote: |
Well now...it seems a whole bunch of effete pseudo-proles resent the fact that the world has caught on to the fact that spoiled middle-class brats might have to pay for their "education" instead of having the working poor pay for it for them.
Note the placards of the latte-la-di-da crowd: "Socialist Worker", "Socialist Student" , etc.
Never worked a day in their lives.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3222200/Top-cop-I-did-not-predict-a-riot.html |
You said it mate.
And I for one am sick of seeing seven year olds freeloading off the taxpayer so that they can sit around in school all day 'learning' or, more likely, fingerpainting. Why do people expect the government to provide a babysitting service for free? If parents really think French or chemistry are so important (and when was the last time you needed anything you learned in those 'lessons'?), then let them pay for it; or, if the children are teenaged, let them pay their own way through school. They'll probably learn more of the real skills and discipline the great majority will need in their lives from a few hours gainful employment than in a whole term at some of these schools - where most of them do nothing but waste time anyway!
Lesson number one: education is a privilege and it must be paid for! No free ride through university, and no free ride through school! No more free rides! |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Mosley wrote: |
Well now...it seems a whole bunch of effete pseudo-proles resent the fact that the world has caught on to the fact that spoiled middle-class brats might have to pay for their "education" instead of having the working poor pay for it for them.
Note the placards of the latte-la-di-da crowd: "Socialist Worker", "Socialist Student" , etc.
Never worked a day in their lives.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3222200/Top-cop-I-did-not-predict-a-riot.html |
You said it mate.
And I for one am sick of seeing seven year olds freeloading off the taxpayer so that they can sit around in school all day 'learning' or, more likely, fingerpainting. Why do people expect the government to provide a babysitting service for free? If parents really think French or chemistry are so important (and when was the last time you needed anything you learned in those 'lessons'?), then let them pay for it; or, if the children are teenaged, let them pay their own way through school. They'll probably learn more of the real skills and discipline the great majority will need in their lives from a few hours gainful employment than in a whole term at some of these schools - where most of them do nothing but waste time anyway!
Lesson number one: education is a privilege and it must be paid for! No free ride through university, and no free ride through school! No more free rides! |
The socialist/public school system is a travesty (parents sending their kids off to be taught lies and brainwashed, and it is in no way "free"), so yeah, what you say is pretty much correct (your misplaced sarcasm notwithstanding). |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Mosley wrote: |
Well now...it seems a whole bunch of effete pseudo-proles resent the fact that the world has caught on to the fact that spoiled middle-class brats might have to pay for their "education" instead of having the working poor pay for it for them.
Note the placards of the latte-la-di-da crowd: "Socialist Worker", "Socialist Student" , etc.
Never worked a day in their lives.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3222200/Top-cop-I-did-not-predict-a-riot.html |
You said it mate.
And I for one am sick of seeing seven year olds freeloading off the taxpayer so that they can sit around in school all day 'learning' or, more likely, fingerpainting. Why do people expect the government to provide a babysitting service for free? If parents really think French or chemistry are so important (and when was the last time you needed anything you learned in those 'lessons'?), then let them pay for it; or, if the children are teenaged, let them pay their own way through school. They'll probably learn more of the real skills and discipline the great majority will need in their lives from a few hours gainful employment than in a whole term at some of these schools - where most of them do nothing but waste time anyway!
Lesson number one: education is a privilege and it must be paid for! No free ride through university, and no free ride through school! No more free rides! |
The socialist/public school system is a travesty (parents sending their kids off to be taught lies and brainwashed, and it is in no way "free"), so yeah, what you say is pretty much correct (your misplaced sarcasm notwithstanding). |
Taught lies and brainwashed? You must have went to a different type of school than me. To me you sound like the brainwashed one. Do you propose school should be optional? Do you know what common goods are? If a large proportion of parents don't educate their children everyone in that country and economy loses. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Mosley wrote: |
Well now...it seems a whole bunch of effete pseudo-proles resent the fact that the world has caught on to the fact that spoiled middle-class brats might have to pay for their "education" instead of having the working poor pay for it for them.
Note the placards of the latte-la-di-da crowd: "Socialist Worker", "Socialist Student" , etc.
Never worked a day in their lives.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3222200/Top-cop-I-did-not-predict-a-riot.html |
You said it mate.
And I for one am sick of seeing seven year olds freeloading off the taxpayer so that they can sit around in school all day 'learning' or, more likely, fingerpainting. Why do people expect the government to provide a babysitting service for free? If parents really think French or chemistry are so important (and when was the last time you needed anything you learned in those 'lessons'?), then let them pay for it; or, if the children are teenaged, let them pay their own way through school. They'll probably learn more of the real skills and discipline the great majority will need in their lives from a few hours gainful employment than in a whole term at some of these schools - where most of them do nothing but waste time anyway!
Lesson number one: education is a privilege and it must be paid for! No free ride through university, and no free ride through school! No more free rides! |
The socialist/public school system is a travesty (parents sending their kids off to be taught lies and brainwashed, and it is in no way "free"), so yeah, what you say is pretty much correct (your misplaced sarcasm notwithstanding). |
Taught lies and brainwashed? You must have went to a different type of school than me. To me you sound like the brainwashed one. Do you propose school should be optional? Do you know what common goods are? If a large proportion of parents don't educate their children everyone in that country and economy loses. |
Nah, clearly you're the brainwashed one - just spewing out the usual, typical socialist platitudes. Yes school should absolutely be optional. But people like yourself (who think they're more enlightened than the rest of us) think it's okay to decide what is mandatory for other people. As if you (or anyone else) are entitled to decide what is the "common good". |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
The socialist/public school system is a travesty (parents sending their kids off to be taught lies and brainwashed, and it is in no way "free"), so yeah, what you say is pretty much correct (your misplaced sarcasm notwithstanding). |
Taught lies and brainwashed? You must have went to a different type of school than me. To me you sound like the brainwashed one. Do you propose school should be optional? Do you know what common goods are? If a large proportion of parents don't educate their children everyone in that country and economy loses. |
Yes, visitorq went to a school where they properly teach how to form the present perfect tense. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| I wrote a big response, then I felt futile and erased it. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Do you know what common goods are? If a large proportion of parents don't educate their children everyone in that country and economy loses. |
"Common Goods" are things that you have that I want. Fortunately, I can usually say that it makes society better for you to give them to me. If a parent is stupid enough to have their child receive no education, then demand goes down, price goes down, and it's cheaper for other children.
Besides, America's public school system is trash. It's not because of teachers or funding.
1. No amount of effort makes one high school diploma more or less meaningful than another. Other than college-bound GPA, it's a piece of paper given for attendance to anyone who is not clearly mentally impaired.
2. Teachers spend the vast majority of their time dragging the pathetic bottom tier (which doesn't want to learn) up to the standardized passing grade.
3. Students are grouped by age rather than intelligence/capability. If the intelligent, capable students went to a different school than the future night-shift supervisors of McDonalds, they'd have an opportunity to learn things.
Honestly, I learned more from TV than I ever did in school for the above reasons. And I damn sure would be learning more on the internet than I would in public school, if I were there now. And again, the reason for this is that the government believes that having a population that reads at a 4th grade level is a "common good". |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| comm wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Do you know what common goods are? If a large proportion of parents don't educate their children everyone in that country and economy loses. |
"Common Goods" are things that you have that I want. Fortunately, I can usually say that it makes society better for you to give them to me. If a parent is stupid enough to have their child receive no education, then demand goes down, price goes down, and it's cheaper for other children.
Besides, America's public school system is trash. It's not because of teachers or funding.
1. No amount of effort makes one high school diploma more or less meaningful than another. Other than college-bound GPA, it's a piece of paper given for attendance to anyone who is not clearly mentally impaired.
2. Teachers spend the vast majority of their time dragging the pathetic bottom tier (which doesn't want to learn) up to the standardized passing grade.
3. Students are grouped by age rather than intelligence/capability. If the intelligent, capable students went to a different school than the future night-shift supervisors of McDonalds, they'd have an opportunity to learn things.
Honestly, I learned more from TV than I ever did in school for the above reasons. And I damn sure would be learning more on the internet than I would in public school, if I were there now. And again, the reason for this is that the government believes that having a population that reads at a 4th grade level is a "common good". |
Learned more from tv than public school? I'm sure that TV taught you to read and write, and to do math. Also in my High School, as in many others I was grouped by capability meaning that other than classes like P.E. and other electives I was in all honors or advanced placement classes with other intelligent students. Do you really believe the majority of Americans only read at a fourth grade level? Who do you hang out with. In order for America to be competitive economically it needs an educated work force. Nothing is more blinding to reality than idealism and fanaticism, it looks to me like several posters just like to bend anything to their world view. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Learned more from tv than public school? I'm sure that TV taught you to read and write, and to do math. |
Yes, if not for public education, a lot of these anti-public education zealots would probably be illiterate. One need merely look at history to see what lack of public education results in: education for the rich, menial work from a young age and lack of opportunity for everyone else. And as for all this talk about how "school should be optional," anyone choosing to opt out of education clearly isn't qualified to be making the decision in the first place.
| Leon wrote: |
| Also in my High School, as in many others I was grouped by capability meaning that other than classes like P.E. and other electives I was in all honors or advanced placement classes with other intelligent students. |
Me too. At this point our anti-education crowd is quite literally slandering the public education system in order to defend their anti-governmental views. Brainwashed and fed lies? Brainwashed to believe what? What are people being indoctrinated into believing? There's not a lot of social propaganda to be found in math, science, and language classes. Hell, our system of "brainwashing" has failed to even convince a majority of Americans that evolution is a real phenomenon.
Our public schools aren't brainwashing anyone. If anything, they're too petrified of taking a stance and actually trying to engage in a bit of ethical education.
| Leon wrote: |
| In order for America to be competitive economically it needs an educated work force. |
For example:
| Quote: |
BEDFORD, Ohio � Factory owners have been adding jobs slowly but steadily since the beginning of the year, giving a lift to the fragile economic recovery. And because they laid off so many workers � more than two million since the end of 2007 � manufacturers now have a vast pool of people to choose from.
Yet some of these employers complain that they cannot fill their openings.
Plenty of people are applying for the jobs. The problem, the companies say, is a mismatch between the kind of skilled workers needed and the ranks of the unemployed.
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Now they are looking to hire people who can operate sophisticated computerized machinery, follow complex blueprints and demonstrate higher math proficiency than was previously required of the typical assembly line worker.
Makers of innovative products like advanced medical devices and wind turbines are among those growing quickly and looking to hire, and they too need higher skills.
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All candidates at Ben Venue must pass a basic skills test showing they can read and understand math at a ninth-grade level. A significant portion of recent applicants failed, and the company has been disappointed by the quality of graduates from local training programs. It is now struggling to fill 100 positions. |
We're entering an age where even blue-collar workers are going to need high school skills. The problem isn't that schools don't teach these subjects; they do, and they do it adequately. The problem is that young punks think to themselves, "I'll never need this again, so why bother," and then go "learn from TV" instead of learning from their text book. Then years down the road, they suddenly find they didn't retain the high-school level skills which they now need to be employable. This isn't a defect in our education system; no system can make you learnif you don't want to, and making it optional will just mean people who shouldn't be opting out opting out. This is a defect in culture and attitude, and all this anti-educational rhetoric just works to reinforce said defect. Students need to be pushed to succeed in these fairly simple endeavors, not comforted with platitudes about how, "The system failed you because it's one-size fits all," or, "Public education is just brainwashing anyway, you'll learn more from TV, so don't bother." The educational system isn't failing students. Students are failing themselves, and are being failed by their parents.
Making high school optional is among the stupidest possible policy choices our nation could make at this time. Students need to be made aware that the job market is increasingly requiring the skills they learn in high school, not indulged in their potential desire to drop out. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Effete "Students" on Rampage |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Also in my High School, as in many others I was grouped by capability meaning that other than classes like P.E. and other electives I was in all honors or advanced placement classes with other intelligent students. Do you really believe the majority of Americans only read at a fourth grade level? Who do you hang out with. In order for America to be competitive economically it needs an educated work force. Nothing is more blinding to reality than idealism and fanaticism, it looks to me like several posters just like to bend anything to their world view. |
To clarify my own position quickly: Education is important and should be -federally- (not locally) funded. Each -student- should receive the same amount of federal support. Specifically though, the parents/student should be able to decide where to get that education and whether to spend extra money to enhance it. The more choice there is in their education, the better. Learning is already optional, but kids are currently required to be in classes.
And to respond...
So in the last 2 or 3 years of public education, you were partially separated from less competent students? That's good, but not quite what I was getting at. That leaves about 10 years where you could have become FAR more advanced than your less capable peers.
My mistake, Americans read at an 8th/9th grade level according to the most recent government analysis. I don't hang out with average Americans, so I had to guess a bit.
I only went to public school once, but know that most of it was a complete waste. Maybe there are better public schools out there, but I wasn't fortunate enough to spend my years in them. 90% of the time was spent remedially dragging the students who didn't want to be there (or were well below average intelligence) up to base level. My point is that most students get very little from our current education system because it's geared to drag terrible students up to literacy. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| I wrote a big response, then I felt futile and erased it. |
+1 |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I learned how to read and write at home; my mother taught me (already had Dick and Jane books down before Kindergarten, not very hard). Other than that what I learned in school was just about zilch (I remember by high school my math teachers were so totally useless that I needed a private tutor to learn at all). You go to public school to be 'socialized', not to learn. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe in compulsory attendance at school - with a public option - but that compulsory education should be literacy and numeracy only. Any education beyond literacy and numeracy would be optional but not necessarily privatized. Once students had passed their literacy and numeracy tests, they would be free to leave education for good if they so wished. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| This thread is not about school leaving age but how much we as a society should invest in the education of our children. It angers me that there are so many who care so little about their country that they can jeer while its education system goes down the toilet. For David Cameron to be able to exclude so many from university education shows that he has no conscience and no patriotism. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| This thread is not about school leaving age but how much we as a society should invest in the education of our children. It angers me that there are so many who care so little about their country that they can jeer while its education system goes down the toilet. For David Cameron to be able to exclude so many from university education shows that he has no conscience and no patriotism. |
There is no "we as a society" (even though you've no doubt been taught this all your life). In reality there's only you, me, and a whole bunch of of other individuals, each of whom are responsible for their own lives and decisions. Nobody is entitled to another person's money, or for anything except their own fundamental liberties. To treat everyone as a collective (no matter how well-intentioned) is an affront to human dignity. |
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