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Chinese 'Political' Attitudes Abroad
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Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:21 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

China purposefully obstructs and manages its citizenry's contact with the outside world, and keeps its regulations murky and opaque to allow the government greater reign. America gets its message out, but tries to speak over dissent, not shut it out, and it has an array of laws and regulations, confusing and inaccessible to the normal citizen, but transparent and available to any who know the complex governmental organs.

I don't think I subscribe to this view. To me it seems awfully naive. You really don't think America's politicians and corporations ever play hardball or use dirt and sleaze and threats and illegal measures?

I have to say, Steelrails, for someone who likes to cultivate the image of having a balanced perspective, you really do take giant unwarranted leaps after people express their opinions.

Steelrails wrote:

You really don't think America's politicians and corporations ever play hardball or use dirt and sleaze and threats and illegal measures?

How did you read my statement and come to this conclusion? Honestly.

Steelrails, do you really think China is a perfect, harmonious society? Do you really think Beijing is a gumdrop, faeryland with happy cherubs floating about on pure silver-lined puffy white clouds?

*shakes head*

My views on China are anything but awfully naive. They may be wrong, or they may focus too much on one aspect of China, or they may be in need of correction, but there is no naivete, I assure you.

There is a distinct difference between the American political system and the Chinese political system. I have talked to many, many Chinese about this, and for almost every opinion I hold on China, there has been at least one Chinese who has agreed with me.

Moreover, I chose to comment on something with which I am familiar, and have studied, the law. The regulations in China are opaque, and the bureaucrat holds a great deal of power. Rule of law is a big problem, and although there have been good steps made in this direction, it is a problem Chinese lawyers discuss regularly. Corruption is a problem in America, but its a much bigger problem in China.

Here is Transparency International's rating of the two countries.

Lastly, America still protects civil liberties and allows due process in criminal proceedings. Sure, there are many problems in the actual administration of justice, and much room for improvement, but there are protections, and they are enforced. So, I advise you to take your dirty politicians and big mean corporations shtick elsewhere more appropriate. If you think that in America, a corporation can detain you for thirty days without trial or a politician can disappear you for political crimes, then you're woefully mistaken.

And if you think I am just another ex-pat in Korea taking the piss out of China, think otherwise. In a lot of cases, I do stretch and take risks with my opinions on this board, and experiment with ideas. But the quotation you provided above is not one of those cases.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:20 am Post subject:

China's future.

Centrifugal forces shape Taiwan's democracy

Quote:

The colorful hoardings and banners that span the urban landscape and speeches and rallies with blaring megaphones have lent a democratic hustle and bustle to the country. Cafeterias and university campuses are busy with heated debates about the relative strengths and weaknesses of candidates, conveying a high degree of people's participation and trust in the political process.

The robustness of Taiwan's transition from authoritarian one-party rule to a full-fledged democracy is also evident from a deepening of popular involvement in governance issues. This correspondent met with a number of radical civil society actors who believe that democracy is a process and not just voters exercising their choices through the ballot box.

Civic-minded citizens monitor elected legislators through continuous social audits and whistle blowing. As one Taiwanese popular organizer put it, "Our congressmen have too much power in their hands and it is in the interests of society to rein them in by exposing malfeasance or neglect."

Simultaneously, there is a realization on the part of politically conscious Taiwanese that the legislature must be strengthened to act as a check and balance against excess concentration of authority in the executive branch. The quintessential idea of separation of powers among organs of state is now well ingrained in Taiwan's civic tradition, as seen when voluntary associations campaign to demand enhancement of congressional oversight of presidential policies.

All these signs of maturation of Taiwanese democracy present hopeful visions of a drastically different Chinese reality in contrast to the regimented and tightly repressed polity of the mainland. Although Taiwan's autocratic ruling elites attempted to forge a separate Taiwanese national identity as a bulwark against the tiny island's forcible absorption into China, the former's successful adoption of democratic values and procedures in the last two decades has generated a more substantive set of differences to distinguish it from the mainland.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

I have to say, Steelrails, for someone who likes to cultivate the image of having a balanced perspective, you really do take giant unwarranted leaps after people express their opinions.

Steelrails wrote:

You really don't think America's politicians and corporations ever play hardball or use dirt and sleaze and threats and illegal measures?

Well re-reading your statement it seems you were more nuanced then I took it to be.

By no means am I naive about China. China to me seems to be the ultimate in amoral government, they seem to have largely abandoned any concept of ideology and are concerned mostly with growth and power.

I just take issue with issue with anyone who ascribes great moral principles to nations, especially those run either by a bunch of party operatives/military figures (China) or those who are responding to campaign donors and lobbyists (U.S.). Sure in each you can find good things about both.

Not that there is anything wrong with governments being dirty. Governments are governments.

I for one don't even want a democratic government to be fully transparent. Can you imagine how a briefing or crisis response meeting would go if it was all on camera? It would be just a bunch of prepared statements and flashy debate points and nothing would get said that needed to be said.

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject:

Quote:

6) I'm a big fan of Thomas P.M. Barnett and I absolutely agree that the smartest thing America could do is to lock in China as its major partner for the next 100 years the way America was to the British, only now we are the Brits. The price? Taiwan. Cheap. And I agree that giving Taiwan the power to declare war between the two countries (which it essentially has now) is absolutely insane. We've seen how that goes in history. Political structure is far less important than economic structure.

You may be making a similar mistake that many make which is believing that the USA and Chinas interests can be aligned. It seems that in all the reading I have done, listening to commentators, anchor people on CCTV and comments by Chinese commentators on certain issues.

It seems that many of them do see an equal stable relationship as something that is wanted. They seem to see it almost as a zero sum game and in the end they percieve themselves as the victors in it.

I would be hesitant about ascribing the Government of China as seeking an equal role in the global community. Whether it was the Chinese Government official who stated on CCTV that China will dominate the US in the next 10-15 yrs and be no 1. (they then quickly cut to a commercial), or comments by anchor people who always seem to be asking leading questions that put the US and China as almost threats to Chinas supposed expected rise.

There seems to be two lvls of discussions at times, I tend to focus more on regional political and military issues and not so much on the business side, so I am skewed. Though I do not find much being said recently by the Chinese Govt, CCTV media or thier commentators, or just general chinese commentators on webpages like the economist, diplomat etc that are reassuring that a equal status is the aim.

It almost seems that China will do whatever it wants to bolster its position even if the small countries get hurt (China seems to believe that they shouldn't matter or at least thats how it sounded when the Foriegn Minister said it).

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject:

The nation-state is declining in influence to the corporation.

If Chinese corporations have billions of dollars in holdings in the U.S. and U.S. corporations have billions in holdings in China do not our interests then meet?

Business interests ARE a nation's interests, especially in two nations that are now and will become more so, respondent to the interests of those businesses.

What are we going to sever trade or go to war with China because they gun down a few hundred protesters?

Quote:

comments by anchor people who always seem to be asking leading questions that put the US and China as almost threats to Chinas supposed expected rise.

Overblown. The PRC's Navy, Air Force, and logistical capacity pales in comparison to the U.S. As Barnett puts it- the U.S. for the 50 years of the Cold War put a half million troops in Europe, a half million in Asia, and during the last 10 years has put a quarter of a million in the Middle East. China's recent expedition was a 150 riot police to Haiti.

That is a massive gap and one that will not be made up soon. Add in China's concerns over ethnic unrest and a bunch of historical adversaries on all sides of it and suddenly its not quite so big and bad.

Quote:

Though I do not find much being said recently by the Chinese Govt, CCTV media or thier commentators, or just general chinese commentators on webpages like the economist, diplomat etc that are reassuring that a equal status is the aim.

In the game of diplomacy sometimes you talk with bluster sometimes you don't.

Not that the Chinese are playing the game that well.

Quote:

It almost seems that China will do whatever it wants to bolster its position even if the small countries get hurt

Yes that's how all great powers operate.

Hindsight

Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject:

Panda wrote:

rollo wrote:

Basically the Chinese when they hear a Western talk of multiculturalism rejoice because it proves beyond doubt that the Chinese are intellectually superior. they have never had liberal thought,, no enlightenment happened in the land of the Han. Being chinese is not just genetic it is a whole slew of behaviors, thought .
You are born Chinese and then you are taught to BE Chinese. Everyone else is a barbarian. They have developed this attitude over the course of 5 thousand years. They fell that it protects their culture and heritage.

People and cultures are different, what a wonderful thing. It really saddens me that there are those who want everyone to be the same.

There is a fine line between feeling superior to others and being proud of themselves...Chinese culture has long been regarded as a humble but strong culture, if you have noticed we have always had the biggest population in the world but mainly been residing in mainland China... we didn't take over south east Asia or other parts of the world with lower civilization and claimed them parts of China like the European did to other parts of the world. Han Chinese has been ruled by Mongolian and other nationalities, it strived and survived and prospered... There are great reasons for Han Chinese to feel proud.

One job of each government is to make their citizens love and stay loyal to their country, for whatever reason you name.( I always regard it as the ultimate joke when someone says one government never lies to thus brainwash their citizens.) Chinese would always be taught as Chinese, should they be taught as Americans?

China doesn't advocate religions among its people, to me that's the biggest human liberalization ever. Most Chinese are more ready to accept other cultures than most foreigners I know in Korea...given mature hardware and software.

One of the biggest differences between Asians and other westerners is how we accept critisicm, if you made an Asian lose their face, no matter how constructive your criticism is, it will piss them off and you will then mistake all Asian(chinese) are blinded....

There is a BIG difference between the historical China, pre-Mao, and Communist China. What Panda says may be true of the old China; Zheng He's voyages were not used for colonization, but that was the better part of a millenium ago.

It doesn't sound like China retreated into benign isolationism, as Panda suggests, though:

Quote:

Modern historians point out that Chinese maritime commerce did not totally stop after Zheng He, that Chinese ships continued to dominate Southeast Asian commerce until the 19th century and that active Chinese trading with India and East Africa continued long after the time of Zheng.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_he

After the Communist revolution, China invaded Tibet and killed more than a million Tibetans in an overt act of genocide, Chinese soldiers invaded U.N. controlled South Korea with close to a million troops, and China funded North Vietnam's war in an effort to extend its communist influence. There is no sign that Communist China's bloodthirsty militarism is waning; indeed, the signs are that its military might is increasing, along with its economic ability, or at least desire, to coerce any country it chooses. In short, Communist China is now probably the most dangerous country on the globe, Panda.

Quote:

Zambia Balances Aid From China and Resentment

As in many other African nations, the Chinese are an enormous economic presence in this impoverished but mineral-rich country, and their treatment of local workers has become an explosive political issue, presenting an awkward balancing act for governments desperate for foreign investment.

But many Zambians complain that these powerful foreigners are permitted to play by their own rules, plundering the country more than developing it and abusing workers as they go. The wounding of 13 miners in a labor dispute at the Collum mine last month once again brought these raw feelings to the surface, revealing conditions at a coal mine where men walk more than 1,000 steps into the earth to slosh through dark and frequently unsafe tunnels. They are paid about $4 a day and say they are expected to work every day of the year.

�We do not have support timbers everywhere they need to be, and we have no masks to protect us from the coal dust,� said Boston Sikalamba, 21, who was buried for several minutes by a cave-in this month. �After the dynamite is set, there�s nothing to do about the dust but breathe it, and if you are slow at your work, the Chinese beat you.�

The Collum mine has been owned for the past nine years by a Chinese businessman, Xu Jianxue. His four younger brothers operate the mine�s four shafts, employing 855 workers, including 62 Chinese supervisors.

Shaft 3, near the site of the shooting, is a steep, narrow pit, barely wide enough for both a man and the loaded coal bins that move on a single thin track to the top. The only light along the way comes from the miner�s headlamp. Water trickles from the ceiling. There are no toilets below, and the miners say they use abandoned tunnels when they have the need.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/world/africa/21zambia.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

I hear plenty of Asians bad mouthing Americans and Westerners in general for what they perceive as past grievances that they probably have no first-hand knowledge of. Much of these repeated grievances may have been anti-American propaganda spread by Communist China during the Cold War, and they still might be spreading it. But it appears China is going to be a far more cruel and inhumane imperialist power than America ever was.

The Chinese bosses have a very simple way of settling labor disputes: they ignore written contracts, and when the employees get upset, they shoot them.

Quote:

�We weren�t going to hurt them, but maybe the Chinese didn�t understand that,� Mr. Simutombo, 25, said recently, displaying scars left by the spray of shotgun pellets. �They were quick to shoot us though, and in Zambia the Chinese can get away with anything.�

And in the rest of the world, China thinks it can get away with anything. Who is going to stop them?

But in the minds of many Chinese people, China is a benign country with only peaceful intentions -- because that is what they are told by the Chinese government, and since they do not have open access to world news, that's what they accept.

Panda wrote:

Quote:

we didn't take over south east Asia

China sure tried. What do you think the Vietnam war was about? China was funding the North, as well as insurgent movements in neighboring countries that destabilized peaceful, lawful governments.

I'm not saying American involvement in the Vietnam War was right or wrong; the whole episode was tragic. But it is very telling that Communist Vietnam now is not so happy with Communist China's power.

You are quick to condemn European imperialism, but Asia is quite capable of imperialism, too, as China should realize. China almost became part of Imperial Japan, and probably would have, had it not been for help from America, and particularly General Vinegar Joe Stilwell, a true friend to China.

Did you learn about General Stilwell in your history courses in China, Panda? I see there are some who still remember him:

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/chongqing/stilwell.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stilwell

Panda, do you know what the opposite of "brainwashing" is? It's called "objectivity." And if you don't think historical objectivity exists in Western countries and scholarship, that is a sad reflection on Chinese culture.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject:

Quote:

In short, Communist China is now probably the most dangerous country on the globe, Panda.

Oh please.

The most dangerous country in the world is Taiwan, followed by the Ukraine because they are the ones that can bring on wars between the big powers.

That's dangerous. Not "Big & Bad" China/Russia. Remember it was Serbia who brought on WWI, not the Kaiser. It was Poland that brought on WWII as much as the Fuhrer. It was Cuba that nearly brought the U.S. & Russia to the brink of nuclear war.

Quote:

But it appears China is going to be a far more cruel and inhumane imperialist power than America ever was.

That would take quite a feat. We're talking about the enslavement of 5 million blacks and the near-extermination of an indigenous power, not to mention the Philippine Insurrection.

Not that China is benevolent. I mean, please. But China has historically been more worried about internal forces and seems reluctant to police the globe.

Quote:

The Chinese bosses have a very simple way of settling labor disputes: they ignore written contracts, and when the employees get upset, they shoot them.

Not that this is okay, but remember we went through the same thing.

Change doesn't happen over night in a perfect manner. It took us a long time to learn to not be total barbarians, and lets be real, we are still pretty barbaric, in order to China to reach where we are now they will have to go through the same labor pains as us.

I find it highly distasteful that a country can engage in utterly horrific behavior in establishing its greatness and then proceed to lecture other nations on how such actions were wrong.

Quote:

China almost became part of Imperial Japan, and probably would have, had it not been for help from America, and particularly General Vinegar Joe Stilwell, a true friend to China.

And the Soviets.

France would have been under the boot of Hitler for a lot longer if some guy named Zhukov hadn't laid the smaketh downeth on the Wehrmacht.

Quote:

And if you don't think historical objectivity exists in Western countries and scholarship, that is a sad reflection on Chinese culture.

I think she is saying that just as Chinese assume that their culture is unbiased so to do Westerners just assume that everything they read in the books is historically objective.

A word of advice- it is quite easy for us to see the warts of China, but we need to realize that we have some pretty nasty ones as well. Some REAL NASTY ones.

Even Pat Buchanan, as big a supporter of Occidentalism as there is, warned that we had better hope that the rest of the world treats us better than we treated them when they end up rising to power.

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