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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
Stop talking about Wikileaks and answer my question. What is it you want your government to be doing, but don't want the average citizen to know about? If the answer to that is "engage in needless wars of discretion that result in hundreds of thousands of fatalities," then just be a man and come out and say it. If your answer is, "Engage in diplomatic scheming that causes havoc around the world, leads to the deaths of innocents, violates the ethical principles of our nation, and would cause a scandal if revealed," then again, stop pussyfooting around and just say it. If neither is your answer, then provide a different one. If your next post is more dubious rhetoric with no clear cut answer, I'll assume you don't have one. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
Sure, if you do not wear safety goggles in a chemistry lab, more likely than not, you will not damage your eyes, but should you be taking that increased risk? |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
Sure, if you do not wear safety goggles in a chemistry lab, more likely than not, you will not damage your eyes, but should you be taking that increased risk? |
Oh a snap response with a clever gotcha analogy..
Yes you should take risks IF there there is a larger benefit to be gained. And yes the benefits have outweighed the risk so far. A democracy works better when people are actually informed on what happens behind the curtain. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| Yes you should take risks IF there there is a larger benefit to be gained. And yes the benefits have outweighed the risk so far. A democracy works better when people are actually informed on what happens behind the curtain. |
Except the vast majority of this stuff comes down to international relations stuff that the vast majority of the American voting public doesn't understand or care about, so I'm really not sure how this is going to benefit democracy.
Either way, perfect democracy isn't something I really care about. Stability and growth are. While Wikileaks might help democracy on a theoretical level, I'm not sure they help it on a practical level, and they definitely have potential to be a destabilizing force. |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
Personally, I don't think killing Assange would do much for the US government. Wikileaks is certainly a relatively small organization, but I'm sure they would manage to maintain operations without their founding member. Killing Assange won't kill Wikileaks, it will only increase sympathy for it and make the problem worse than it already is. Otherwise it wouldn't be far-fetched to believe that Assange would've been killed a while ago. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
Sure, if you do not wear safety goggles in a chemistry lab, more likely than not, you will not damage your eyes, but should you be taking that increased risk? |
Oh a snap response with a clever gotcha analogy..
Yes you should take risks IF there there is a larger benefit to be gained. And yes the benefits have outweighed the risk so far. A democracy works better when people are actually informed on what happens behind the curtain. |
Well, I did say that wikileaks (with certain rules in place) could play a potentially positive role, but at this point in time (with no rules in place), unlike you, I am not convinced the benefits outweigh the risks. And frankly, it is too early to 100% conclude that either way. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Fox,
There is no doubt that the USA has made a variety of mistakes. On the other hand, I also think it would be a very grave mistake to reveal every single thing that the US government talks about. That kind of attitude is what I would call a "consequences be damned" attitude. So, in my opinion, this Julian Assange is playing with fire. And I do find that to be rather ridiculous.
Also, just to echo what Northway has already pointed out, this does make diplomacy more difficult for both the USA and its allies. It be as if a group of friends were having private conversations, and then, someone betrayed their confidence by revealing embarrassing details. None of us would like that especially if it were to be on a professional level. So, it does seem a bit hypocritical that there are people (namely Julian Assange and his wikileaks organization) in the west, who value privacy, but are unwilling give such a concept any value when it relates to diplomats.
With all that said, I do think that wikileaks can play a potentially positive role, but Julian Assange and those who work for him need to learn to be more tactful. Namely, they should not be releasing information that does no one any good. In short, they should not be revealing military plans, tactics, etc. If they want to reveal a war crime, then sure that's great, but there is no need to put lives in danger by revealing other sensitive pieces of information. |
yeah, people keep PARROTING the same thing but where is the evidence that anyone has died or been seriously harmed over what has been published?
checkmate.
One thing is for sure though, Assange's life is in danger. People have been killed by the US government for a lot less. |
Sure, if you do not wear safety goggles in a chemistry lab, more likely than not, you will not damage your eyes, but should you be taking that increased risk? |
Oh a snap response with a clever gotcha analogy..
Yes you should take risks IF there there is a larger benefit to be gained. And yes the benefits have outweighed the risk so far. A democracy works better when people are actually informed on what happens behind the curtain. |
Well, I did say that wikileaks (with certain rules in place) could play a potentially positive role, but at this point in time (with no rules in place), unlike you, I am not convinced the benefits outweigh the risks. And frankly, it is too early to 100% conclude that either way. |
they do have their own rules, regardless of what you've read.
http://wikileaks.org/media/about.html |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:31 am Post subject: |
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So far, I'm a little underwhelmed by some of the revelations that are coming out.
| Quote: |
The cables unearthed new revelations about long-simmering nuclear trouble spots, detailing U.S., Israeli and Arab world fears of Iran's growing nuclear program, American concerns about Pakistan's atomic arsenal and U.S. discussions about a united Korean peninsula as a long-term solution to North Korean aggression.
The Guardian said officials in Jordan and Bahrain have also openly called for Iran's nuclear program to be stopped by any means and that leaders of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Egypt referred to Iran "as 'evil,' an 'existential threat' and a power that 'is going to take us to war.'"
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Unless you're some bozo who thinks that all muzzies are on the same side, it can hardly come as a shocking revelation that some arab countries aren't too happy about Iran. But wait, there's more!!
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| "If there is something on the Iranian issue that, in my opinion, happens to help Israel, it is that these leaks show that Arab countries like Saudi Arabia are far more interested in Iran than they are in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, for example," Giora Eiland, a retired Israeli general who served as national security adviser to former prime ministers Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, told Israel Radio |
Well, I personally never really imagined that the king of Saudi Arabia was crying himself to sleep every night over the plight of the Palestinians. I think I've even read on Dave's ESL Cafe that "Those arab desposts don't really care about Palestine, they just use it as propaganda to distract attention from their own failings".
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Comments such a description of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's head of state, as playing "Robin to (Prime Minister Vladimir) Putin's Batman," are sure to embarrass the Obama administration and to complicate its diplomacy.
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Preesumably, Medvedev has been laboring under the illusion that the whole world regards him as his own man, totally uninfluenced by anyone else. Guess he doesn't read political cartoons.
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| Britain's Sun newspaper told how one British former government minister was described as a "hound dog where women are concerned." |
A British politician who screws around?! I thought the Profumo Affair was just something they made up for the movies!
link |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Then what is it you want the government doing that you don't think the average citizen should be made aware of? |
Surprise parties. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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How serious is the U.S. Government about killing Assange?
He seemed to stop short of saying that they actually wanted to "kill" him but he's been advised by those in his corner to not set foot in America.
In the 1970s, there was someone else who was a whistle blower - I forget his name - who had a contract put out on him by the U.S. Government. Without doing a Google search at the moment, I can't remember his name, but he was doing something similar to what Assange is doing. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| In the 1970s, there was someone else who was a whistle blower - I forget his name - who had a contract put out on him by the U.S. Government. |
Philip Agee? |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
How serious is the U.S. Government about killing Assange?
He seemed to stop short of saying that they actually wanted to "kill" him but he's been advised by those in his corner to not set foot in America.
In the 1970s, there was someone else who was a whistle blower - I forget his name - who had a contract put out on him by the U.S. Government. Without doing a Google search at the moment, I can't remember his name, but he was doing something similar to what Assange is doing. |
Probably Mark Felt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: |
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How dare Wikileaks expose my American government for its support of the PKK terrorist organization that kills innocent civilians, proving the War on Terror is a hypocritical sham. Boo hoo hoo.  |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
How serious is the U.S. Government about killing Assange?
He seemed to stop short of saying that they actually wanted to "kill" him but he's been advised by those in his corner to not set foot in America.
In the 1970s, there was someone else who was a whistle blower - I forget his name - who had a contract put out on him by the U.S. Government. Without doing a Google search at the moment, I can't remember his name, but he was doing something similar to what Assange is doing. |
Daniel Ellsberg, who released the Pentagon Papers. |
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