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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| GwangjuParents wrote: |
In my view, the only two options are:
1) Do nothing (current policy)
2) Launch a full scale attack with the aim to topple the North Korean regime.
There's no middle ground here. |
+1 A small-scale attack could quickly spiral into a shelling of Seoul. A large, well planned assault would be the only way to keep civilian casualties down.
| Koreadays wrote: |
wow a poll.. ok must be correct then. so some guy went around and asked 50 million people their religious belief. when did this happen??
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Well it's called a census, and it actually took a few guys to do it. Here's the CIA world factbook link https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html but if you want the original census in Korean, you're on your own.
But you're probably right, the only way for a poll to be valid is to ask every member of the group. I guess statistics isn't a requirement for all 4-year degrees  Though Steelrails' point that many Christians are in positions of power is well-taken.
My point was (controversial nature of polls aside) that SK's inaction was more a result of Confucian thought (keeping the many safe) rather than Junior's assertion that it is the result of materialism rooted in Western Christianity. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreadays wrote: |
wow a poll.. ok must be correct then. so some guy went around and asked 50 million people their religious belief. when did this happen??
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lol, this comment is unbelievable! how the heck do you not know what a census is? |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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War would cripple the nation and set back the entire Korean peninsulla by decades.
North Korea might be a tinpot country in many peoples eyes but it does have a substantial military and nuclear capability: NK annual military budget $6bn is going to cause damage one way or another. Some basic, laymans facts means that however long the conflict lasted South Korea would be
1) the proximity of Seoul to the North
2) the demographic reality of Korea ie it is mainly mountaineous which has dictated the skyrise nature of urban planning and development. You wouldn't need a well coordinated air strike to cause damage here, not in the slightest
3) they have nuclear weapons, press the right buttons and the damage toll would be incommensurable imo
I know everyone hates wikipedia but just have a read of this:
"North Korea is the most militarized country in the world today,[4] having the fourth largest army in the world, at about 1,106,000 armed personnel, with about 20% of men ages 17�54 in the regular armed forces.[5] It also has a reserve force comprising 8,200,000 personnel. It operates an enormous network of military facilities scattered around the country, a large weapons production basis, a dense air defense system, the third largest chemical weapons stockpile in the world,[6] and includes the largest Special Forces contingent (numbering 180,000 men).[7]"
War is the last thing Korea would want. Junior is right (though I wouldn't be as coarse with my description) but Korea would lose almost everything it has worked so hard for if they went to war. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Koreadays wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| metalhead wrote: |
Well it is a very Christian country after all, how do western Christian countries differ in this respect? |
# Nonreligious: 49.3%
# Christianity: 26.3%
# Buddhism: 23.2%
Please don't contribute to the stupidity of the internet by making things up.
Ironically, a Christian country would probably be far more concerned with justice and/or revenge than "turning the other cheek". I kinda like that about the Christians.
EDIT:
Source (for those interested)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Korea |
wow a poll.. ok must be correct then. so some guy went around and asked 50 million people their religious belief. when did this happen??
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So you're claiming that polls are always way off?
The numbers are close enough. One needs only look at all the churches around here to know that there is a significant Christian population. |
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interestedinhanguk
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Koreadays wrote: |
wow a poll.. ok must be correct then. so some guy went around and asked 50 million people their religious belief. when did this happen??
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lol, this comment is unbelievable! how the heck do you not know what a census is? |
Apparently you were naughty and didn't fill out your census form this year.  |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
Actually, Japan set off a nuke in a civilised land, too a while ago. In Australia.
The whole world noticed it but they couldn't really decide what it was, so they just wrote it off as an earthquake.
I think it was about 40 years later when anyone actually found out what it actually was, when they caught the Japanese terrorist group and found the blueprints. |
This never happened. Add Globutron to the list of posters with absolutely no idea of what they're talking about. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| 3) they have nuclear weapons, press the right buttons and the damage toll would be incommensurable imo |
People forget that whilst NK could theoretically nuke the south, it would be like holding hands with your buddy and giving him a hand grenade with the pin pulled out.
Seoul is so close to NK that the nuclear fallout if not direct blast or shockwave would affect them as well. A nuke would be a last resort "oh shit our ship is sunk, might as well take down their ship too" tactic. Hopefully SK and US surveillance and military planning already has the disabling of NK nukes as one of the top priorities, relegating any war to a ground, sea, and air affair.
I personally think it would be a quick fight; the south using the combined technological advantage of US and their own tech to take out key personnel and sites leaving the North with no leadership. Things would follow its own course of action after that point. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
3) they have nuclear weapons, press the right buttons and the damage toll would be incommensurable imo
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But they have only very crude delivery systems and even then their yield is quite small.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki had recovered fairly soon enough.
| Quote: |
| NK annual military budget $6bn |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Right around Norway.
Nothing to sneeze at, but not exactly a behemoth.
| Quote: |
| War is the last thing Korea would want. Junior is right (though I wouldn't be as coarse with my description) but Korea would lose almost everything it has worked so hard for if they went to war. |
In one sense I sorta agree. The status quo is preferable to war. The costs of war would be too great.
At the same time I think the costs of rebuilding, while high, would not be as much as everyone thinks. I think you'd see a lot of entrepreneurism. Remember, most of the people in South Korea know what its like to go from nothing to technology. They could use their experience to smooth the process.
I don't think the war would set the country back by deades though. Germany, Japan, and the Netherlands were worn torn in 45 but they came back alright. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: |
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A massive strike on Seoul would cripple the South Korean economy, much as a hit on London or Paris would be devastating to England or France.
As South Korean and American naval forces are now conducting live fire exercises, it's possible North Korea may choose to take this as provocation, and, with the new rules of engagement, the possibility of escalation increases.
I don't believe anything's going to happen, but if I was outside the country considering whether or not to come work in Korea I might think twice. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
A massive strike on Seoul would cripple the South Korean economy, much as a hit on London or Paris would be devastating to England or France.
As South Korean and American naval forces are now conducting live fire exercises, it's possible North Korea may choose to take this as provocation, and, with the new rules of engagement, the possibility of escalation increases.
I don't believe anything's going to happen, but if I was outside the country considering whether or not to come work in Korea I might think twice. |
Rebuilding happens quickly. Germany and England were subject to constant air raids and still managed to keep a war economy going. A one off strike by NK would not be as devastating as advertised, assuming there was no use of incendiary/chemical warheads.
To say nothing of the wisdom of firing off all your ordinance to kill at best 50,000 people (probably more like 10,000) and blow up a Face Shop and COEX.
"Congratulations sir, you've just enraged the entire free world, made it impossible for China to back you, depleted our ammunition, lost 70% of our in-range artillery to counter-bombardments and airstrikes, and hit nothing of military value. In fact your blowing up of Itaewon is probably a force multiplier for them. Any more plans sir? Maybe send 100,000 men through one of our tunnels?" |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So I assume if war breaks out we'll be seeing you at the front lines? |
Probably more interesting than being in the classroom.
but as history shows, dying for this country's freedom does not garantee Koreans will ever accept you into their society. So why bother. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So I assume if war breaks out we'll be seeing you at the front lines? |
Probably more interesting than being in the classroom.
but as history shows, dying for this country's freedom does not garantee Koreans will ever accept you into their society. So why bother. |
If you are dead it's rather difficult to be accepted into most societies.
And if you mean fighting as opposed to dying...then that is untrue. For quite some time Korean War vets were the only foreigners who could buy property in Korea.
And as for dying the consul general of the Korean consulate in L.A disagrees with you.
"Over and over again Korean War veterans tell me that Korea is the only country that appreciates their efforts or at least continues to express its gratitude year after year."
http://sedonakorean.org/2010/11/12/thank-you-message-from-jaesoo-kim-consul-general/
But I suppose you know better than these Korean War veterans?
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So I assume if war breaks out we'll be seeing you at the front lines? |
Probably more interesting than being in the classroom.
but as history shows, dying for this country's freedom does not garantee Koreans will ever accept you into their society. So why bother. |
Yeah the blacks who fought in the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWII and Vietnam all returned to parades and access into the highest strata of society.
I'm sure Gurkhas were likewise "welcomed with open arms and promises of mating with British ladies"
You and I didn't do any of the fighting so I don't think we're owed anything for it.
How long before a debt is paid? Should the French still lord over the Americans the help they gave in the American War of Independence? |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| samd wrote: |
| Globutron wrote: |
Actually, Japan set off a nuke in a civilised land, too a while ago. In Australia.
The whole world noticed it but they couldn't really decide what it was, so they just wrote it off as an earthquake.
I think it was about 40 years later when anyone actually found out what it actually was, when they caught the Japanese terrorist group and found the blueprints. |
This never happened. Add Globutron to the list of posters with absolutely no idea of what they're talking about. |
First of all, you're a dick.
Second:
| Quote: |
At 11:03 PM local time on May 28, 1993, a large-scale seismic disturbance, elsewhere reported as measuring 3.9 on the Richter scale, was detected near the Banjawarn sheep station in remote western Australia. The few observers in the area reported seeing a flash in the sky and hearing an explosion.
The blast was 170 times more powerful than the biggest mining explosion ever recorded in the region and was consistent with a meteorite strike, but no crater could be found.
In 1995, after the Aum Shinrikyo in Japan had released nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system and killed 12 people, it was revealed that the cult owned a 500,000-acre property in western Australia near the site of the mysterious boom.
The cult has two former Soviet nuclear engineers in its ranks. |
Now there is actually no direct proof of what I stated so boldly, but with no crater to show any supposed meteor strike, there isn't that much else you can use to explain it.
I could have stated it in a less factual way, but hey, why should I? (Oh it was 4 years without figuring the details, not 40 - that was actually a typo. One of those times where you think of something and type it without realising)
Oh and you're a dick. |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
| samd wrote: |
| Globutron wrote: |
Actually, Japan set off a nuke in a civilised land, too a while ago. In Australia.
The whole world noticed it but they couldn't really decide what it was, so they just wrote it off as an earthquake.
I think it was about 40 years later when anyone actually found out what it actually was, when they caught the Japanese terrorist group and found the blueprints. |
This never happened. Add Globutron to the list of posters with absolutely no idea of what they're talking about. |
First of all, you're a dick.
Second:
| Quote: |
At 11:03 PM local time on May 28, 1993, a large-scale seismic disturbance, elsewhere reported as measuring 3.9 on the Richter scale, was detected near the Banjawarn sheep station in remote western Australia. The few observers in the area reported seeing a flash in the sky and hearing an explosion.
The blast was 170 times more powerful than the biggest mining explosion ever recorded in the region and was consistent with a meteorite strike, but no crater could be found.
In 1995, after the Aum Shinrikyo in Japan had released nerve gas in the Tokyo subway system and killed 12 people, it was revealed that the cult owned a 500,000-acre property in western Australia near the site of the mysterious boom.
The cult has two former Soviet nuclear engineers in its ranks. |
Now there is actually no direct proof of what I stated so boldly, but with no crater to show any supposed meteor strike, there isn't that much else you can use to explain it.
I could have stated it in a less factual way, but hey, why should I? (Oh it was 4 years without figuring the details, not 40 - that was actually a typo. One of those times where you think of something and type it without realising)
Oh and you're a dick. |
It's obviously conspiracy theory BS, which prompted my first post.
However, despite your insults, I decided to Google it again. I came up with this.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2285/did-the-aum-shinrikyo-cult-detonate-an-atom-bomb-in-australia
Feel free to apologise any time. |
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