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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
I am going to take the opposing side here and say that since the word 'abuse' is so distorted in its application that it is often confused with real discipline. Without any honest investigation, a child's statement that her father did hit is meaningless simply because it is hearsay from aminor no less, there were no actual witnesses and the child could have been coached to obtain a desired result.
Thus to blindly assume it is 'abuse' is actually wrong and any leaps to a conclusion could and will hurt innocent people. Making unsubstantiated accusations does no one any good and will bring a lot of negative reaction upon the accuser.
So I have some simple legitimate questions I would like to ask here for those who have lept to this conclusion:
#1. Why does a westerner think that their job of assistant teacher makes them morally superior to their Korean counterpart?
#2. Why does a westerner think that his or her job as an assistant teacher makes them the boss, supervisor, principal of the Korean school teachers, in their own coutnry and who already have their own bosses who have legitimately determined what their subordinates can and can't do?
#3 Why do westerners think that their subjective definition of 'abuse' over-rules the definition of the Korean people and nation?
#4. Since this is their land, the legitimate duly elected KOREAN gov. gets to determine what is or isn't abuse, regardless of what the West thinks, do they not have the right to implement their own definitin for their own people in their own land? Again regardless of the fact thatit might offend some western sensibilities.
#5. What makes the Western definition of the word 'abuse' superior to the Eastern one?
#6. Who says the western definition and its application of the definition of the word 'abuse' is actually the correct one? Can't they be wrong?
#7. Then if the definition of the word 'abuse' is then subjective and limited in authority to each respective country, then no real standard of the word 'abuse' exists thus a westerner really can't claim that 'abuse' is taking place in this country, now can they?
#8. IF the world wants to have an ultimate moral standard, whose do they choose as all countries and people are equal thus all definitions of the word 'abuse' are equal and not greater than any other?
#9. If a country violates its own definitin of abuse, do you not think that they have become immoral nullifying their definition of the word 'abuse' because it is based upon hypocritical foundations? If a nation is hypocritical how can we trust its judgment in defining the word 'abuse'?
#10. Since the line between 'abuse' and 'discipline' has become very distorted and confused, wouldn't be prudent to establish a very clear boundary for both so that innocent people will not suffer from false accusations and witchhnts, merely because the accuser just doesn't like the way another family exercises its right to raise their family?
(I will cite the 'Witchhunt in Wennatchee' tragedy as support for these questions as too many 'social workers' have arbitrarily used their power to destroy that which they do not like. Not for real reasons of 'abuse' but merely for their own personal distaste for other people.)
Now I have kept these very general and am trying to stay away from offending anyone but I feel that the position of some of the posters is a leading cause why Westerners have trouble in this country. They take the wrong position and react wrongly, invoking an authority they do not have.
I will say I am against abuse, but it has to be truly abuse and not some subjective opinion based upon some weak sensibility that other people do not possess.
I will also say that I am for corporal punishment, if it is done correctly and that the Korean people, in their own land have the right to determine which is which without Foreigners butting in.
One specific thing I will mention, is that on eposter was forcing HIS views upon another people and I bet that he or she would be the first one to complain if se/she were approached by Christians who wanted to share their faith with him and her. Their complaint would be that those Christians were forcing their ways upon them.
Hypocrisy does not lend well to moral stands. |
Even though I am cast in the role of premier apologist on this board, I would not argue something like this.
Yes abuse claims are sometimes over-sensationalized. But in the specific case I referred to, the student lost hearing in one ear. That is abuse anyway you cut it...I don't care what definitions we are applying here. That is not justified. Even the Korean court agreed.
And I think that most people can distinguish between discipline and abuse. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes abuse claims are sometimes over-sensationalized. But in the specific case I referred to, the student lost hearing in one ear. That is abuse anyway you cut it...I don't care what definitions we are applying here. That is not justified. Even the Korean court agreed.
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Sorry, maybe I was too general. I wasn't objecting to your example, consistant beating would be abuse, but I was addressing the OP's example as there are too many mitigating options that come intoplay that would not qualify a bruise or a comment as 'abuse'. For all we know, the girl could bruise easily and a flick of the finger could bruise her and her comment would still be true--her dad did it.
I am well aware of your position about Korea and almost 100% I have agreed with your defense of this country. Not always but a lot. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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SUPERNET your post is without doubt the longest winded load of bollocks I've read on Daves, period. 
No one was saying they are in a position of power or authority. The thing is that we, as adults, should stick up for our beliefs. If we don't then we are just sheep following others.
Maybe you like to be an unthinking yes man in your life and thats your decision. Personally I like to stand up for the rights of children because to me its an important issue. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| southernman wrote: |
SUPERNET your post is without doubt the longest winded load of bollocks I've read on Daves, period.
No one was saying they are in a position of power or authority. The thing is that we, as adults, should stick up for our beliefs. If we don't then we are just sheep following others.
Maybe you like to be an unthinking yes man in your life and thats your decision. Personally I like to stand up for the rights of children because to me its an important issue. |
I am going to disagree with you because I was never an unthinking yes man. Your beliefs do not matter in this country for they get to determine what abuse is not you.
Your standard of right and wrong has no meaning for it is not greater than the Korean one and since you are trying to force your ways upon Koreans you cannot complain when they force their ways upon you or you ruin everything you may have constructively done.
"Abuse' is subjective and too many people distort it so it really has no meaning anymore. I heard one time, from a North American, a person who , when he had heard that another North American family did not have a computer, that that was abuse.
People apply the term too loosely and innocent people will get hurt. I disagree with your orignal post, I know you are not the OP, because you immediately assumed something without an honest investigation, no real facts, just a bruise and a comment, nothing substantial to support the charge except your personal bias and the importing of your standard based upon whatever experience you may have except in this case, your experience did not allow for a differen culture to define 'abuse' in a different manner than the west.
You cannot apply the western codes or definitions in a country that is not western and has developed their own definitions and abide by them. For all you know, the girl took a light slap in discipline, not abuse. A briuse in and of itself is not enough evidence to make the charges in the OP; there are just too many alternatives that come into play as the source of the discoloration.
You cannot be blinded by your own sensibilities here, you are not inyour own country. Now with that said, I do stop the boys from hitting the girls when i see them but I do it within my boundaries and position, i certainly do not threaten to quit my job unless the Korean teachers do it my way, that is just absurd; for they have their way of handling the same situation which they have permission to do from their bosses. I am not their boss.
Now you may want to call his long winded but I have a lot to say on this issue. Your original post is what caused me to sign up along with the fact I will need to use the buy/sell forum soon.
You are way out of line and if no one else will say it , I will. Your attitude is one reason why westerners have trouble in this country, you just do not understand how to do things in a different culture and achieve the same results. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Let me add a humosous story to illustrate my point. In my second year at my firsthigh school a male teacher took over the school discipline department, he was a very thorough man and a bit zealous in carrying out his duties. I never saw him go overboard in his use of the 'love stick' (and not the point of the story).
Now every teacher in that school knew, that i considered my class time very important and they did not interupt it. Well one day the disciplinary teacher had a list of students who had violated some rules and he carried out his punishment during my class time. We could here him making his way down the hall: there would be a few knocks, the sound of the door opening then closing, then whack whack, the door then opened and closed.
This was repeated all the way down the hall and you could see the students in my class start to get nervous as he came closer and closer. Well he finally arrived at the classroom I was in and he opened the door, his head was down as he was getting to read the names off his list when he suddenly looked up and saw me.
He stopped, his facial expression changed and he started to back out of the room saying I'm sorry, I'm Sorry. Then he closed the door and went to to the next class. My co-teacher turned to me and said, 'The students love you as you just saved them from being hit.'
The point of the story is, you do not have to force your ways on someone or threaten to get your point across. There are better ways of doing things.
After I left that school, they tried for 3 years to get me to come back. I didn't because I didn't want to work with the present principal and I liked the school I was at at the time. |
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DorkothyParker
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I consider myself a relativist. I also believe that (to paraphrase) the right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins. Violence is violence when it impedes on another human being's right to personal safety. (I understand spanking a toddler who misuses a stove because it reinforces the danger of the stove itself and is an act of love, not domination. A 9 year old doesn't require physical conditioning of this type, I think.)
In this situation, I would mention it to my coteacher and try to create a caring safe haven for my student. Maybe I am wrong on this, but I tend to go a LOT easier on the kids who have violent parents.
I am against covered rear spanking and ruler rapping in American public schools, but in private schools and in other countries I think this is someone else's decision. |
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SeoulShakin
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Those who say the Koreans will do nothing, your response makes me quite upset.
While I was in Seoul I worked in both a Hogwan and the public school system. Hitting was NEVER tolerated in any of those locations. In fact, at my public school all I saw were teachers going above and beyond for the kids they suspected were abused or neglected by their parents.
They stayed late after school with the kids whose parents weren't home and didn't care if their kid came home. They helped them finish their homework and packed food and fed them to make sure they had a meal. Some of the teachers spent their own money to buy some students winter jackets, gloves and hats because they knew the parents wouldn't care about keeping them warm. I sat with many teachers who were anxious about parent teacher meetings because they'd be confronting parents who they suspected to be abusive, and had meetings set up with the principal on how to handle it, report it, and help.
I'm definitely not saying that every teacher is like this, but to say that NOBODY will care to report abuse or do anything to help is ludicrous. There are good and bad teachers in every country. I am lucky to have known some fabulous teachers who went above and beyond in my time in Korea. Good on the OP for reporting it to your boss, and I'm glad to hear that your boss is one of the good ones. Hopefully your student will get some help. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I consider myself a relativist. I also believe that (to paraphrase) the right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins. Violence is violence when it impedes on another human being's right to personal safety |
I am not going to disagree with your view, just your definition of the word 'violence'. Discipline is not violence or we would be living in an age of anarchy. If you do not want to hit someone, that is fine but I do not believe you have the right to stop someone who believes hitting is justified and does it properly.
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| In this situation, I would mention it to my coteacher and try to create a caring safe haven for my student |
I have always felt that if I can see the bruise then the student's home room teacher has seen it as well and knows what to do. Remember home room teachers here have many different responsibiities than their counterparts in the west. Students look to them as a second parent and they do spend a lot of time with their students.
My point is that the westerner cannot import his or her ideas on 'abuse' and expect the Korean civilization to immediately follow suit especially when no proper or honest investigation was done. Too many innocent families have been ruined because some social worker abuses their position and extrapolate their ideas upon others for no real reason.
I have also talked to people of other ountries who rue the day when corporal punishment was removed from their schools because it made life far more difficult for the teachers and discipline was virtually impossible. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
| I heard one time, from a North American, a person who , when he had heard that another North American family did not have a computer, that that was abuse. |
I find this hard to believe. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
| southernman wrote: |
SUPERNET your post is without doubt the longest winded load of bollocks I've read on Daves, period.
No one was saying they are in a position of power or authority. The thing is that we, as adults, should stick up for our beliefs. If we don't then we are just sheep following others.
Maybe you like to be an unthinking yes man in your life and thats your decision. Personally I like to stand up for the rights of children because to me its an important issue. |
I am going to disagree with you because I was never an unthinking yes man. Your beliefs do not matter in this country for they get to determine what abuse is not you.
Your standard of right and wrong has no meaning for it is not greater than the Korean one and since you are trying to force your ways upon Koreans you cannot complain when they force their ways upon you or you ruin everything you may have constructively done.
You cannot be blinded by your own sensibilities here, you are not inyour own country. Now with that said, I do stop the boys from hitting the girls when i see them but I do it within my boundaries and position, i certainly do not threaten to quit my job unless the Korean teachers do it my way, that is just absurd; for they have their way of handling the same situation which they have permission to do from their bosses. I am not their boss.
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At my first job here in Korea at a Hagwon a K teacher got the sack, on the spot, for slapping a middle school girl in the face in the classroom
At a PS I worked at last year I arrived at school to see many of my Korean Teacher Colleagues holding banners and plackards, one was speaking through a microphone to motorists and pedestrians. When I asked what it was all about I was told that they were protesting about/against child abuse.
As the Op and others have also mentioned on this subject.
For you to say that child abuse is just the way it is in Korea is far to simplistic. Many Koreans do no condone it and many are against it. It actually states in PS contracts that we should also teach and give information about western culture and beliefs.
What is absurd about quitting a job because you don't agree with the practices of your employer or other employees at your place of work. I think you'll find it's actually quite common for people to leave their place of employment for such reasons. I know many people who have left their jobs over matters of principle. I certainly would, big deal, I'm not a matryr or zealot. But certain things are important to me. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="superNET"#1. Why does a westerner think that their job of assistant teacher makes them morally superior to their Korean counterpart?
#3 Why do westerners think that their subjective definition of 'abuse' over-rules the definition of the Korean people and nation?
You sound like somebody masquerading as a NET. Your use of the word 'nation' gives you away as Koreans tend to continually refer to it.
I will say I am against abuse, but it has to be truly abuse and not some subjective opinion based upon some weak sensibility that other people do not possess.
What 'weak sensibility that other people do not possess'? Caring about children is 'weak' now is it? Again you don't sound like a NET.
I will also say that I am for corporal punishment, if it is done correctly and that the Korean people, in their own land have the right to determine which is which without Foreigners butting in.
I note the same point - you use foreigners with a capital 'F' when the word does not begin a sentence. Very Korean.
Hypocrisy does not lend well to moral stands.
How the hell does the OP or anybody else here who does not agree with your long winded lecture happen to be a 'hypocrite'? Using the example of a foreigner who does not want to be bothered by Christians or any other group knocking on their door or trying to publicly collar them and get them to listen to views they are not interested in is absurd.
We are talking about seeing Korean children in our classes with bruises. In the case of the OP it was not a small bruise he saw but one that obviously came about through force. I'd stop writing these kinds of essays if I were you - you're only making yourself look like a fruitcake.
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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You sound like somebody masquerading as a NET. Your use of the word 'nation' gives you away as Koreans tend to continually refer to it.
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Assumption without proper evidence
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| Caring about children is 'weak' now is it |
Distortion to enable manipulation
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| How the hell does the OP or anybody else here who does not agree with your long winded lecture happen to be a 'hypocrite' |
An example is an example nothing more but they allow themsleves to set the standard for what they consider to be 'abuse' but do not allow the Koreans to do so--either one is a hypocrite or operating a double standard, take your choice. Either way it nullifies a person's ability to set the standard for what is 'abuse'.
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| We are talking about seeing Korean children in our classes with bruises. In the case of the OP it was not a small bruise he saw but one that obviously came about through force |
Assumption based upon hearsay and one side of the story, doesn't hold water. It still ignores other sources for the cause of the bruise and one cannot automatically assume it is abuse.
You all leap to too many conclusions.
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| At my first job here in Korea at a Hagwon a K teacher got the sack, on the spot, for slapping a middle school girl in the face in the classroom |
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At a PS I worked at last year I arrived at school to see many of my Korean Teacher Colleagues holding banners and plackards, one was speaking through a microphone to motorists and pedestrians. When I asked what it was all about I was told that they were protesting about/against child abuse.
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So? Neither justifies your threats and forcing your way upon others. Nor do these legitimize your definition of what 'abuse' is. Your definition is too extreme and hurts innocent people. You are not right.
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| Many Koreans do no condone it and many are against it. |
So? So am I, what does that prove except I know the difference between discipline and abuse. I also know that every bump, bruise, broken bone, etc. is not caused by abuse alone.
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| It actually states in PS contracts that we should also teach and give information about western culture and beliefs. |
You are not teaching but using that clause to threaten and force, there is a big difference there. You do not have a legitimate right to force your ways upon a sovereign people or nation. They get to choose how they will define and apply terms.
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| What is absurd about quitting a job because you don't agree with the practices of your employer or other employees at your place of work |
Because it doesn't mean anything nor will it solve the problem. You obviously think more highly of yourself than the Koreans do and think threats actually mean something. All they have to do is hit a student in front of you and their problem is solved--you go away and they can continue to hit students without having to deal with your interference.
You are not thinking things through.
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| I know many people who have left their jobs over matters of principle. I certainly would, big deal, I'm not a matryr or zealot. But certain things are important to me. |
Then quit or your threats mean even less. Soon they will see them as a manipulating tool and you will experience a backlash at some point and it won't be good. Unless you make good on your threat, it is just empty words.
Like I said before, there are better ways to handle things and one is learn that the Koreans get to define what 'abuse' is in this country, how to apply it, and how to deal with it. Any other country's definition doesn't have any authority or impact here.
if you can't handle this issue like an adult, then I think you are going to have problems every year you are in this country. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
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The western view of "never hit your children" is pretty narrow-minded.
I agree that you shouldn't hit your kids in the U.S. or most western countries. That's because Western parents are terrible. They neglect their kids, send them to nurseries, emotionally/mentally f them up, etc. etc.
In Korea, kids are nurtured and taken care of. At least one parent is always around, they have a strong family support system, and older siblings are expected to take care of their younger ones.
Yeah, I think lots of Koreans get a bit messed up by the whole grades/school thing, but all in all the proof is in the pudding: Korea does not suffer from that many social ills.
Korea is doing something correctly. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="superNET"]
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| It actually states in PS contracts that we should also teach and give information about western culture and beliefs. |
You are not teaching but using that clause to threaten and force, there is a big difference there. You do not have a legitimate right to force your ways upon a sovereign people or nation. They get to choose how they will define and apply terms.
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| What is absurd about quitting a job because you don't agree with the practices of your employer or other employees at your place of work |
Because it doesn't mean anything nor will it solve the problem. You obviously think more highly of yourself than the Koreans do and think threats actually mean something. All they have to do is hit a student in front of you and their problem is solved--you go away and they can continue to hit students without having to deal with your interference.
You are not thinking things through.
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| I know many people who have left their jobs over matters of principle. I certainly would, big deal, I'm not a matryr or zealot. But certain things are important to me. |
Then quit or your threats mean even less. Soon they will see them as a manipulating tool and you will experience a backlash at some point and it won't be good. Unless you make good on your threat, it is just empty words.
Like I said before, there are better ways to handle things and one is learn that the Koreans get to define what 'abuse' is in this country, how to apply it, and how to deal with it. Any other country's definition doesn't have any authority or impact here.
if you can't handle this issue like an adult, then I think you are going to have problems every year you are in this country. |
Duh............... The problem would be solved from my point of view because I would no longer have to witness it.
Yes I agree all my co-teachers would have to do is hit a child in front of me and their problem (me) would be solved. Why haven't they, I wonder... maybe I'm doing something right in the classroom perhaps....
I actually agree with earthquakz, you do sound like a Korean with your usage of some words. Thats cool I have lots of Korean friends and still keep in touch with many of my old Korean colleagues.
Actually I have encountered very few problems in this country both in the workplace and in general. We are told that if we have any issues with our co-teachers that we are to wait until after class and talk about things respectfully. Which I have done in both cases, I witnessed child abuse twice, had a quiet word at the appropriate time and in a respectful manner.
Its the way westerners do things. We are brought up to voice our concerns if we feel something is wrong. We are encouraged to be free thinkers and to form our own opinions. It's actually a necessity in any democratic country if that country wants to develop and advance intrinsically.
I do actually answer the door to religious people and speak to them on the street as well. I just politley say thanks for your time but I'm not interested. Nobody is offended and we go our seperate ways. I do beleave everyone has the right to voice their opinion and views if nobody is harmed.
However, abuse is abuse, I'm not talking about a gentle spanking here but actions that are without doubt physical abuse by a stronger adult against a defenceless child. If you can't or don't understand that then I pity you |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I will respectfully disagree with you and also in comparing your other posts with this last one, take the position of doubting you.
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The problem would be solved from my point of view because I would no longer have to witness it.
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The problem isn't solved if you are against 'abuse' or corporal punishment and it still continues. All you are putting into practice then is 'out of sight out of mind' and that doesn't aid your statement of 'protecting the students in your class'. It just changes to a different venue. |
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