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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| However, it is perfectly legal to be an independent contractor in Korea, even on an E2 visa, and then pension is not legally required. In this case, having a contract state that there will be no pension paid merely clarifies and restates the legal status of independent contractor. |
Yes, but only if the contract specifically states you are an independent contractor. If it does not, then you an employee, and pension is legally obligated. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| However, it is perfectly legal to be an independent contractor in Korea, even on an E2 visa |
Where does it say this?
"The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if you, the person for whom the services are performed, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result" - http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179115,00.html
"Example: Vera Elm, an electrician, submitted a job estimate to a housing complex for electrical work at $16 per hour for 400 hours. She is to receive $1,280 every 2 weeks for the next 10 weeks. This is not considered payment by the hour. Even if she works more or less than 400 hours to complete the work, Vera Elm will receive $6,400. She also performs additional electrical installations under contracts with other companies that she obtained through advertisements. Vera is an independent contractor."
My understanding is that E2 visa holders would have to get permission from both their current employer to work a second location and from immigration.
Outside of this E2 visa holders CANNOT be considered independent contractors. By not having permission, you would be an employee.
Conclusion: If you haven't applied to immigration for a second job, then you are entitled to this pension. You would have to illegally work a second job in order to be seen as an independent contractor and immigration can't support that position  (You can't have your cake and eat it too)
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| contract specifically states you are an independent contractor |
That can't be true for what I stated above. You need to get permission from immigration. That would be the determining factor, not what is in the contract. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
| Where does it say this? |
Quoting definitions of what an independent contractor is in the US means nothing. The Korean definition is obviously not the same. I agree with you with what the definition SHOULD be, but that is NOT the definition the Korean use (as far as E2 visas go)
"Independent contractors" have NOTHING to do with Immigration. It only determines how the various other laws treat you (pension, taxes, severance, NHIC).
And if it states in your contract that you are an independent contractor, the laws WILL affect you differently, and the various offices WILL treat you differently.
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| contract specifically states you are an independent contractor |
That can't be true for what I stated above. You need to get permission from immigration. That would be the determining factor, not what is in the contract. |
Needing permission from Immigration goes for ANYONE with a work visa, independent contractor or not. An E2 visa still limits you to one job and one job only, even if you are an independent contractor. Again, being an independent contractor (on an E2) has nothing to do with the actual job you are working.
This has been an issue with E2ers for years now, and how schools have been screwing them out of their pensions and medical just by adding the words "independent contractor" to the contracts. It's an established fact. It has happened, it continues to happen, and the pension/tax/NHIC offices continue to uphold the practice. |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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ANYBODY who takes an E2 job without pension (and hence national health insurance) in violation of E2 requirements IS AN UTTER MORON!!!! you are not only allowing your employer to take advantage of you but you are risking you and your families financial security. You may think you are healthy etc but things happen, you get into a car accident in a taxi, a space heater goes etc and we are having fund raisers like we did for Bill Kapoun.
Remember Bill was considered and independent contractor with no health insurance and look what happened to him.
maybe if you MORONS would stop taking these jobs these greedy hogwon owners would actually follow the law |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| hogwonguy1979 wrote: |
ANYBODY who takes an E2 job without pension (and hence national health insurance) in violation of E2 requirements IS AN UTTER MORON!!!! [...]
maybe if you MORONS would stop taking these jobs these greedy hogwon owners would actually follow the law |
And still, the point is if the contract states that the teacher is an independent contractor, no laws have been broken. Educate people to stop signing these independent contractor contracts instead. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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I fail to see the logic in calling someone an "independent" contractor if they can only work one job.
I provided US law, not to win a case, but to show merit to my position. Does anyone have Korean law that supports the nonsense about independent contractors being tied to one company? |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| ANYBODY who takes an E2 job without pension (and hence national health insurance) in violation of E2 requirements IS AN UTTER MORON!!!! |
I would disagree with that statement, some people prefer not to have the government involved in their financial affairs and they can purchase seperate medical insurance if they wanted to.
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| you are not only allowing your employer to take advantage of you but you are risking you and your families financial security |
I disagree with both of these statements as well, as if you do not want pension then how is the employer taking advantage of you? It makes no sense. And you may die tomorrow and your family's financial security is threatened anyways.
Of course my attitude is different from most people's because I do not put my trust in money, for even if you had a premium plan that covered most illnesses and other catastrophes, you may just luck out abd get something the insurance doesn't cover, then where would you be? |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ANYBODY who takes an E2 job without pension (and hence national health insurance) in violation of E2 requirements IS AN UTTER MORON!!!! |
I would disagree with that statement, some people prefer not to have the government involved in their financial affairs and they can purchase seperate medical insurance if they wanted to.
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| you are not only allowing your employer to take advantage of you but you are risking you and your families financial security |
I disagree with both of these statements as well, as if you do not want pension then how is the employer taking advantage of you? It makes no sense. And you may die tomorrow and your family's financial security is threatened anyways.
Of course my attitude is different from most people's because I do not put my trust in money, for even if you had a premium plan that covered most illnesses and other catastrophes, you may just luck out abd get something the insurance doesn't cover, then where would you be? |
uh moron IT IS THE LAW IN KOREA FOR E2s AND E2 EMPLOYERS TO PAY INTO PENSION AND NHIC FOR THEM!!!!!. You aint in the US where health insurance is optional (for now). Schools who dont pay into this are robbing you and the government. Its also us (and your families) who wind up chipping in money at fundraisers when people get sick/injured and they dont have it because their greedy company decided not pay it when they were supposed to. I'm sure Bill Kapoun's family would have liked his employer to follow the rules
If people would stand up to these people and not take these bs jobs maybe employers would actually treat their employees with an ounce of respect (then again daves would become pretty boring if there were no more horror stories)
uggghhh!!! |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| hogwonguy1979 wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ANYBODY who takes an E2 job without pension (and hence national health insurance) in violation of E2 requirements IS AN UTTER MORON!!!! |
I would disagree with that statement, some people prefer not to have the government involved in their financial affairs and they can purchase seperate medical insurance if they wanted to.
| Quote: |
| you are not only allowing your employer to take advantage of you but you are risking you and your families financial security |
I disagree with both of these statements as well, as if you do not want pension then how is the employer taking advantage of you? It makes no sense. And you may die tomorrow and your family's financial security is threatened anyways.
Of course my attitude is different from most people's because I do not put my trust in money, for even if you had a premium plan that covered most illnesses and other catastrophes, you may just luck out abd get something the insurance doesn't cover, then where would you be? |
uh moron IT IS THE LAW IN KOREA FOR E2s AND E2 EMPLOYERS TO PAY INTO PENSION AND NHIC FOR THEM!!!!!. You aint in the US where health insurance is optional (for now). Schools who dont pay into this are robbing you and the government. Its also us (and your families) who wind up chipping in money at fundraisers when people get sick/injured and they dont have it because their greedy company decided not pay it when they were supposed to. I'm sure Bill Kapoun's family would have liked his employer to follow the rules
If people would stand up to these people and not take these bs jobs maybe employers would actually treat their employees with an ounce of respect (then again daves would become pretty boring if there were no more horror stories)
uggghhh!!! |
I'm not as...high-spirited as my fellow poster but I agree as pension, as far as I know, IS the law wether you like it or not and in my opinion it is to our benefit. I'm, like others, live life surfing on the won deposited into my account. Having that little government nest egg is a huge relief for me should I chose to leave this country. Some prefer the monies paid up front but I believe that a vast majority of teachers/posters would also come to lean on that pension once tickets back home are bought and future endeavors are planned on.
This is especially important for those who may be here for 3 years or the critical 5 year period. I understand that after 5 years in country your penision plan may jump considerably. Nothing to scoff at or so I've been told.
So, my advice, planning on stayin here 1,2 years, not a big worry as long as you receive that pay directly or going into a pension. 3+, then it's something you need to take very serious.
But it all comes down to the absolute truth, how well do you manage your own finances vs. lett'n someone else do it for you. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| uh moron IT IS THE LAW IN KOREA FOR E2s AND E2 EMPLOYERS TO PAY INTO PENSION AND NHIC FOR THEM |
I have been polite enough to all and have refused to name call anyone so it would be nice to have the same treatment in return. Oh, and please stop tellingme what I already know, if you can't handle a different perspective then why are you in teaching?
I am glad that people take those jobs that do not offer pension for it leaves optins open for those of us who like to have a choice. I really do not need government help in saving my money, some of us know how to spend wisely.
When I first go there, there was no mandatory pension plan, just medical and in all the years I have been here, it has been cheaper for me to pay my medical expenses when they happen than pay the premiums for the whole year.
Oh, please stop bringin up Kapoun, that is an issue that i think no one wants to revisit and one case doesn't prove your point when compared to the thousands who were not injured. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I really do not need government help in saving my money, some of us know how to spend wisely. |
Where do you save your money? In a bank? You don't think that bank is linked to the government?
What you are talking about is access, not saving. It's a bit strange to say you want to save money but you want access to it.
If you are really spending your money wisely, you don't need access to all of it. |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I mean it is law that pension is required, but if this guy is willing to let the school screw him over and break the law, then you can't argue with him.
There are people in the world who willingly get taken advantage of and I don't understand it, but hey, it doesn't affect me and you shouldn't care if they won't listen to the advice. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| What you are talking about is access, not saving |
No, I was talking about savings but now that you mention it, access would be nice as well.
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| If you are really spending your money wisely, you don't need access to all of it. |
Not true.
And since we are on the topic, I think that if people really were concerned about lowering the cost of items for sale, company contributions to pension funds should be halted.
Though I will take what was given to me, this is one area that needs to be looked at. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
"If you are really spending your money wisely, you don't need access to all of it."
Not true. |
Are you going to the casino then every day gambling your "savings" which you are claiming have NOTHING to do with accessibility (but would be nice too, right? )?
You are squirming your way around every logical corner 
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| And since we are on the topic, I think that if people really were concerned about lowering the cost of items for sale, company contributions to pension funds should be halted. |
Yea, lower costs, company gets less money, and the company gets to pass that loss of revenue down to the employee by means of lower income and removing benefits.
This guy is a genius folks. We have been thinking it all wrong. We don't need money, let's just retire now. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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but if this guy is willing to let the school screw him over and break the law, then you can't argue with him.
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Keep in mind that my example was from years ago and I do not think that a company is screwing me. If I can't save for my own future then I have a problem.
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| it doesn't affect me and you shouldn't care if they won't listen to the advice. |
No i just don't listen to wrong advice. I do not think it is right for the government to force companies to pay into a pension program for their employees unless they are deducting the employee's share and sending it in.
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| Are you going to the casino then every day gambling your "savings" which you are claiming have NOTHING to do with accessibility |
You went to left field on this one |
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