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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:58 am Post subject: |
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At the end of the day it doesn't matter:
-how much preparation you do before hand
-how many materials you prepare and submit
-how punctual, well dressed and well behaved you are
-how much Korean you learn
-how much of an effort you make to get to know your colleagues
-how many gifts you buy
If you have a bad school you will fail. The way English is 'taught' in this country, combined with the expectations of foreign teachers, how Koreans see the language, see language acquisition and foreigners in general along with a litany of cultural hurdles means that there will always be mistakes and always be issues. If your teacher decides to call 'foul' against you she can and that is pretty much it.
I work every minute God sends in my school, by the time I leave the lights are all pratically off, the doors are all locked, everyone bar me has signed out on the messenger and only the 경비 아쩌시 is left (one of the few people who makes an effort to get to know me). I've come in on Saturdays, I've re submitted documents, I prepare all materials, I have to make two seperate lesson plans per week for each class and have dozens of other tasks.
I get no credit or no gratitude wahtsoever, just guys asking me why I dont play 촉구 with them and why I drink those 'funny' protein shakes as well as my coteacher asking me why I don't eat the Korean lunches and for more this and more that.
Another interpritation of the op's question is whether a 'good' teacher is necessarily a 'successful' teacher in this country. These are two very different things in South Korea in my opinion and a distinction needs to be drawn. Good teachers are not people who last a long time here in my opinion but carefree people, with little attachment to anything other than the bar stool and their salary who get drunk with their colleagues and then westerners on consecutive days and don't give a hoot tend to do quite well here. I am not sure Korea even wants 'good' teachers here as these are less likely to constantly say 'yes Ms Lee, how high?' to each and every cultural whim this country throws at you, hence why professionally certified teachers coming here en masse would never work.
I have to say though this is absolutely ridiculous coming from a recruiter, I must say. In many ways this is another sad indicment of the ESL industry in this country.
Will you are a good person I am sure but you are a good foreign person. Koreans do not answer to foreigners, not foreign teachers, or foreign recruiters. There are too many mitigating factors you have to consider that you have no power over whatsoever.
No one can prepare anyone from the West for what they will face in Korea. This is essentially an exploitive industry where foreign workers are heavilly stigmatized and have little protection from the law. Now you try and prepare someone for that anywhere in the world and you can't. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Hello, jrwhite82!
I don't deny that there are benefits in being an extrovert, but there are also certain benefits in being an introvert. I spend a lot of time translating Korean children's songs and Korean picture books so I can use them in my English class. I spend a lot of time making games. I do this in the time that some extroverts spend going out and getting drunk so that they stagger into the classroom with a hangover the next morning.
Furthermore, introversion has offered me immunity to culture shock. What difference does it make whether I'm a stranger in a strange land or whether I'm a stranger in my own land?
Hello, ESL Milk Everyday!
You made a perfect description of me--about twenty years ago.
I used to believe that children were emissaries of God, and therefore any rejection on the part of a child constituted a rejection on the part of God.
You can imagine how successful I was in getting teaching and day care jobs, and you can imagine how successful I was in keeping those jobs once I got them.
Hello, Some Wayguk-in!
My last job was a public school teaching job, and it was very much like what you described.
I had one teacher, though, who gradually came to see the light. At first, she jumped in at the first opportunity and hangukmall'ed non-stop for the rest of the class period.
Later in the year, however, she asked me to read the game descriptions in the teacher's manual and supervise the games myself.
I felt complimented. It is not often that a Korean adult gives me credit for that much foreign language competence.
The teachers who were assigned to work with me were more like undercover agents than anything else. Instead of calling them 협력교사님's, or "co-teachers," they should call them 반대교사님's, or "anti-teachers."
Hello, Troglodyte!
I resent it when Koreans assume that I am exactly like all other wegukins.
Don't you?
Then let's pay Will the same respect by not assuming that he is exactly like all other recruiters.
I appreciate Will coming on this forum and asking us for our opinions.
I can count on the fingers of one hand the times that a Korean supervisor or co-worker has ever asked me for my opinion. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Fair points.
Though your lack of support isnt because we dont want you to win.
Its mainly because we say whats real and happening today. It doesn't correspond with the info you want.
We cant change that.
It would be nice to sell you a story, but the reality is different. It is the daily grind, it is the different issues regarding each job.
In all the years I have been here - I have never once told some else that they should come here.
The reason is that each person is unique and I dont know how they will handle Korea. Korea is an experience unique for each person.
You cant find the right person unless you seek the people who have been here before and lived more than 3 years.
Therefore the right person for the job is some one who has ben here before and wants to return.
My area - I met 6 teachers. 1 stayed 3 yrs , the rest left after 1 yr because they dont like it here. Who is a good teacher for the job? |
Nice. Particularly that last point. Maybe the first step would be to define what "success" in this position actually means.
From a recruiting standpoint, and this isn't just us, but all recruiters, we're looking for "good enough." We are happy if somebody is good enough for the job, and good enough to stay the length of their contract. If we get great, and loves it, that's awesome.
From a teaching standpoint, I left SK after about a year and a half, and most of it was good, but when I left..I knew I wouldn't be back. But does that mean I wasn't a good fit for the job? I don't feel that way. I wouldn't have been a 3-5 year teacher, but I don't look back on my experience with negativity, so I would consider it successful.
What do you guys think? This is a tough topic, but if some kind of consensus can be reached on what a successful experience in South Korea, or simply abroad, is like, that would be a great start no? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Tomato for the response.
My experience was mostly working in elementary schools. I know middle and high schools can be very different.
My experience with co-teachers was sadly very common. Most of the foreign teachers I talked with had similar situations to deal with.
A few were lucky, very few....perhaps 10%. Some others were the strong-willed type who managed to bully their co-teachers into submission.
While they may have gotten short term satisfaction of getting their way in the classroom, usually they didn't last more than 1 year.
I am not a forceful person and I am not willing to fight with my co-teachers. If we can't work things out with reasoned discussion then there's no point. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I agree 100%
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Thanks Tomato for the response.
My experience was mostly working in elementary schools. I know middle and high schools can be very different.
My experience with co-teachers was sadly very common. Most of the foreign teachers I talked with had similar situations to deal with.
A few were lucky, very few....perhaps 10%. Some others were the strong-willed type who managed to bully their co-teachers into submission.
While they may have gotten short term satisfaction of getting their way in the classroom, usually they didn't last more than 1 year.
I am not a forceful person and I am not willing to fight with my co-teachers. If we can't work things out with reasoned discussion then there's no point. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
Another interpritation of the op's question is whether a 'good' teacher is necessarily a 'successful' teacher in this country. These are two very different things in South Korea in my opinion and a distinction needs to be drawn. Good teachers are not people who last a long time here in my opinion but carefree people, with little attachment to anything other than the bar stool and their salary who get drunk with their colleagues and then westerners on consecutive days and don't give a hoot tend to do quite well here. I am not sure Korea even wants 'good' teachers here as these are less likely to constantly say 'yes Ms Lee, how high?' to each and every cultural whim this country throws at you, hence why professionally certified teachers coming here en masse would never work.
I have to say though this is absolutely ridiculous coming from a recruiter, I must say. In many ways this is another sad indicment of the ESL industry in this country.
Will you are a good person I am sure but you are a good foreign person. Koreans do not answer to foreigners, not foreign teachers, or foreign recruiters. There are too many mitigating factors you have to consider that you have no power over whatsoever.
No one can prepare anyone from the West for what they will face in Korea. This is essentially an exploitive industry where foreign workers are heavilly stigmatized and have little protection from the law. Now you try and prepare someone for that anywhere in the world and you can't. |
Sorry I overlooked this post initially.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and the idea of "successful" does
depend on whose perspective you are thinking on.
There won't be a way to fully prepare somebody for life abroad, due to the multitude of factors that come in to play, not least being that we are all on our own journeys so everyone will react differently in different situations.
Thanks for the compliment, and you're right, I'm not Korean, so there is another side to this that is tough for me to truly understand.
That being said, if you can find the middle ground, and explain, with some accuracy, the benefits that people will be able to achieve, as well as predict some of the challenges they will face, then it will help. I want the right people in the right jobs. It isn't easy, and if you speak to every teacher who ever taught at the school that I did, some would say it was great, and others would say it is awful. The reality is that it was somewhere in between, but that it wasn't right for Teacher A to work with School B, but it was right for Teacher B to work with School B. I want to find out how to figure out who is Teacher A and who is Teacher B. Likewise, we want to know who is School A and School B.
So what can we do to let teachers know what kind of school will be a good fit for them?
You said that licensed teachers in Korea wouldn't work, why is that? Are there types of schools that licensed teachers do well in?
What do the licensed teachers think? |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of Koreans seem to think that the reason why their children are not learning English is because native teachers are not 'qualified' for the job. And similarly, that hiring qualified teachers is the way forward.
Teachers who have been versed is western teaching methods wouldn't last in Korea unless they totally overhauled their training and methods as, from experience, western teaching methods that we consider conventional do not work with a Korean audience hence the mantra 'adapt to the culture because the culture won't adapt to you'.
I think it would lead to more frustration and an even shorter lifespan for the native teacher. Having spoken to professionallay trained teachers, they seem to be even more frustrated by the conditions here.
| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
Another interpritation of the op's question is whether a 'good' teacher is necessarily a 'successful' teacher in this country. These are two very different things in South Korea in my opinion and a distinction needs to be drawn. Good teachers are not people who last a long time here in my opinion but carefree people, with little attachment to anything other than the bar stool and their salary who get drunk with their colleagues and then westerners on consecutive days and don't give a hoot tend to do quite well here. I am not sure Korea even wants 'good' teachers here as these are less likely to constantly say 'yes Ms Lee, how high?' to each and every cultural whim this country throws at you, hence why professionally certified teachers coming here en masse would never work.
I have to say though this is absolutely ridiculous coming from a recruiter, I must say. In many ways this is another sad indicment of the ESL industry in this country.
Will you are a good person I am sure but you are a good foreign person. Koreans do not answer to foreigners, not foreign teachers, or foreign recruiters. There are too many mitigating factors you have to consider that you have no power over whatsoever.
No one can prepare anyone from the West for what they will face in Korea. This is essentially an exploitive industry where foreign workers are heavilly stigmatized and have little protection from the law. Now you try and prepare someone for that anywhere in the world and you can't. |
Sorry I overlooked this post initially.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and the idea of "successful" does
depend on whose perspective you are thinking on.
There won't be a way to fully prepare somebody for life abroad, due to the multitude of factors that come in to play, not least being that we are all on our own journeys so everyone will react differently in different situations.
Thanks for the compliment, and you're right, I'm not Korean, so there is another side to this that is tough for me to truly understand.
That being said, if you can find the middle ground, and explain, with some accuracy, the benefits that people will be able to achieve, as well as predict some of the challenges they will face, then it will help. I want the right people in the right jobs. It isn't easy, and if you speak to every teacher who ever taught at the school that I did, some would say it was great, and others would say it is awful. The reality is that it was somewhere in between, but that it wasn't right for Teacher A to work with School B, but it was right for Teacher B to work with School B. I want to find out how to figure out who is Teacher A and who is Teacher B. Likewise, we want to know who is School A and School B.
So what can we do to let teachers know what kind of school will be a good fit for them?
You said that licensed teachers in Korea wouldn't work, why is that? Are there types of schools that licensed teachers do well in?
What do the licensed teachers think? |
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Hotpants
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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There seems to be a bit of blurred distinction between the 'teacher' character and the 'overseas' adaptability parts.
My answer would be that regardless for what country you teach - or even work - in, you just have to be someone who is prepared to jump in with both feet, not be prone to regrets, be willing to accept that anything could happen, not be bothered when no one speaks English, be very thick skinned, have no high expectations, and have loads of energy. Furthermore, aside from character aspects, you need to be savvy of how you get yourself out of a situation without any help if things turn bad.
Whether you develop yourself as a 'teacher' is down to the individual.
You also need to be independent, since tearing yourself away from all your family and close friends in the first place is a high price to pay for overseas experience. Furthermore, returning home after a stint of teaching abroad can sometimes irreparably damage any career path.
My view comes with 12 years in the ELT industry. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Just a warning: this is Non sequitur from the OP's original idea; Kind of about Korean culture, leading into teaching.
I love Korea. Honestly, I do. Probably about as much as I love my own country. However, there are negatives and positives about many things, like the culture, language, people, politics, etc. in each country.
I have been blessed with "friends" of mine that are Korean. Even though a lot of them are older professors (so there's a respect in the relationship from me to them), they have lived in the US, Canada, or all over Europe, so they treat me as an equal, friend, or even family. The men will give me cigarettes to smoke with them when we are out drinking, and we will give hugs all around when we are leaving. It's sort of actually bizarre, knowing how Korean culture is. I'll never forget the day when I was visiting one male professor for lunch at his office at SNU. He walked me to the bus stop, and hugged me goodbye. The bus pulled up just then, and an old lady harumphed and glared at us!
While it is often they tell me not to speak formal Korean, or to bow, or to adhere to Korean customs, I feel since I am in their country, I should do it. And a lot of the time, I don't mind giving them the cultural respect they deserve, partly because they respect me and treat me well. As many of you know, calling a Korean who is older or younger than you a "friend" is to misspeak, however, I think in specific relationships it can be a truth.
I think being a good overseas EFT/ESL teacher requires a lot of what Tomato and Stevie talked about. As much as I love this country, there are a lot of problems and unfair doings towards foreign teachers. I have been the recipient of them a number of times. But as someone mentioned, there are a lot of problems with how the DOE is handling English language education. As we have seen, in general, working hard and working over and beyond what you are asked, does not make Korean teachers accept you as a good teacher.
What to do? I don't know. What ever happened to foreign teachers starting a union? Did anyone advance on that? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
A lot of Koreans seem to think that the reason why their children are not learning English is because native teachers are not 'qualified' for the job. And similarly, that hiring qualified teachers is the way forward.
Teachers who have been versed is western teaching methods wouldn't last in Korea unless they totally overhauled their training and methods as, from experience, western teaching methods that we consider conventional do not work with a Korean audience hence the mantra 'adapt to the culture because the culture won't adapt to you'.
I think it would lead to more frustration and an even shorter lifespan for the native teacher. Having spoken to professionallay trained teachers, they seem to be even more frustrated by the conditions here.
| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
Another interpritation of the op's question is whether a 'good' teacher is necessarily a 'successful' teacher in this country. These are two very different things in South Korea in my opinion and a distinction needs to be drawn. Good teachers are not people who last a long time here in my opinion but carefree people, with little attachment to anything other than the bar stool and their salary who get drunk with their colleagues and then westerners on consecutive days and don't give a hoot tend to do quite well here. I am not sure Korea even wants 'good' teachers here as these are less likely to constantly say 'yes Ms Lee, how high?' to each and every cultural whim this country throws at you, hence why professionally certified teachers coming here en masse would never work.
I have to say though this is absolutely ridiculous coming from a recruiter, I must say. In many ways this is another sad indicment of the ESL industry in this country.
Will you are a good person I am sure but you are a good foreign person. Koreans do not answer to foreigners, not foreign teachers, or foreign recruiters. There are too many mitigating factors you have to consider that you have no power over whatsoever.
No one can prepare anyone from the West for what they will face in Korea. This is essentially an exploitive industry where foreign workers are heavilly stigmatized and have little protection from the law. Now you try and prepare someone for that anywhere in the world and you can't. |
Sorry I overlooked this post initially.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and the idea of "successful" does
depend on whose perspective you are thinking on.
There won't be a way to fully prepare somebody for life abroad, due to the multitude of factors that come in to play, not least being that we are all on our own journeys so everyone will react differently in different situations.
Thanks for the compliment, and you're right, I'm not Korean, so there is another side to this that is tough for me to truly understand.
That being said, if you can find the middle ground, and explain, with some accuracy, the benefits that people will be able to achieve, as well as predict some of the challenges they will face, then it will help. I want the right people in the right jobs. It isn't easy, and if you speak to every teacher who ever taught at the school that I did, some would say it was great, and others would say it is awful. The reality is that it was somewhere in between, but that it wasn't right for Teacher A to work with School B, but it was right for Teacher B to work with School B. I want to find out how to figure out who is Teacher A and who is Teacher B. Likewise, we want to know who is School A and School B.
So what can we do to let teachers know what kind of school will be a good fit for them?
You said that licensed teachers in Korea wouldn't work, why is that? Are there types of schools that licensed teachers do well in?
What do the licensed teachers think? |
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I think a lot of the "problems" Koreans think they have with teachers are caused by a lot of unrealistic expectations they place on those teachers.
They expect their child to whizz through textbooks at 2 or 3 times the recomended speed, skip levels, be placed in too difficult levels, learn things without proper context or learn from completely inappropriate materials and they expect the teacher to magically be able to pull all this stuff into a manageable teaching method within a week or so of arrival. 
Is is any wonder that the teachers they choose to hire fail to live up to their expectations?
I am a firm believer that even the most inexperienced newbie can flourish if given the proper support and working environment.
Also, the most seasoned veteran can fail when they are put in unreasonable teaching situations. What most "veterans" learn after a year or so in Korea is not how to be better teachers so much as how to avoid bad
teaching situations.
Good teaching environments are sadly lacking in the majority of what passes for English education in Korea today. But it's always easy and convenient to blame the teacher and that is what most likely will continue to happen. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Also, the most seasoned veteran can fail when they are put in unreasonable teaching situations. What most "veterans" learn after a year or so in Korea is not how to be better teachers so much as how to avoid bad
teaching situations.
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This, too, is wildly true. The unpreparedness that teachers are faced with really is a problem. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Teachers who have been versed is western teaching methods wouldn't last in Korea unless they totally overhauled their training and methods as, from experience, western teaching methods that we consider conventional do not work with a Korean audience hence the mantra 'adapt to the culture because the culture won't adapt to you'. |
^^^^This is good
| Quote: |
not least being that we are all on our own journeys so everyone will react differently in different situations.
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The bolded words are one source for why many Westerners have problems in this land. If you are not here to teach then you will view your job differently than others and you will encounter more hassles and little things will be exaggerated where they appear worse than they really are.
P.S. Let me add that too many people come here with false expectations. They think they will be given the red carpet treatment, have no problems or whatever.
Then they get hit with the reality that they are here to do a specific job and are expected to do that job, just like back in their home countries, and they are not prepared. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Teachers who have been versed is western teaching methods wouldn't last in Korea unless they totally overhauled their training and methods as, from experience, western teaching methods that we consider conventional do not work with a Korean audience hence the mantra 'adapt to the culture because the culture won't adapt to you'. |
^^^^This is good
| Quote: |
not least being that we are all on our own journeys so everyone will react differently in different situations.
|
The bolded words are one source for why many Westerners have problems in this land. If you are not here to teach then you will view your job differently than others and you will encounter more hassles and little things will be exaggerated where they appear worse than they really are.
P.S. Let me add that too many people come here with false expectations. They think they will be given the red carpet treatment, have no problems or whatever.
Then they get hit with the reality that they are here to do a specific job and are expected to do that job, just like back in their home countries, and they are not prepared. |
Hey superNET's points touched on something that just occurred to me.
When friends of mine ask about my experiences abroad, I remember the good ones. In fact, I have a hard time remembering the dramatic or irritating moments, or the moments that frustrated me or made me hate life abroad on whatever particular day something bad happened.
Am I just an optimist? Even when I think back on University, I remember the good times, while the bad times just fade away to the point where I would really need somebody to remind me that there were any tough times at all.
What do you guys think? Just me, or do you guys do it this too?
The reason I ask is that, I bet when I asked people about life abroad, they reflected on the good times, thus contributing to the expectation of a red carpet.
Thoughts?
Also- for those joining us, I'm the OP, and I'm working on a job preview incorporating what has been covered, and I will post it when I've got it together so you guys can check it out and critique it. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Sorry I let this lag! |
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Hi Guys,
Sorry for letting this thread die down, but the holidays can put things on hold as we all know.
I found a couple of youtube videos that will give you an idea for what I'd like to do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkC8TtYE0jw
You get the basic info for the job, but in a way that, well...to be honest..doesn't make me want to do the job - but that's the point! I don't want to do that job, so I'm not going to pay for a course or certification, I'm not going to do the paperwork or waste my time looking for this kind of job.
For somebody who does want to do that job...they have a good idea of what to expect, so when they are handed a sheet of 100 people to call they don't look at it and say "what have I gotten myself into? I hate my life."
I'm not looking to produce videos or anything, and I've found a number of good ones out there. I'm hoping to put together a general package using a variety of media to get the most accurate picture of what this job entails (from everyone's perspective) and what kind of person would be successful in this role.
Food for thought! I'm continuing to work on it as I find the time...
-Will at Footprints |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Will ,
these videos for EFL and Korea already exist! If that is what you are up to and wanting free content for your recruiting agency - I don't see why anyone should share it. Again, I'll go back to my first comment. Still think you are being disingenuous about your ultimate end game here with this conversation. Why should we freely help you compile content for footprints?
Search on EFL Classroom 2.0 and you'll find a whole series of videos like the nursing one. But I'll let you search.
I will tell you that they were professionally produced but no longer in the public realm. Because I'm the garbage collector of EFL , got them and keep them. My fight against the ephemeral nature of the internets.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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