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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
| Mariella713 wrote: |
| Anyway, as for you saying it is rude to speak in Korean if one person does not understand it...speaking in your mother tongue is effortless and natural when you're around people of your own kind. There was only ONE foreigner in comparison to several Koreans sitting at the table (if I remember the post correctly?). Tough luck. |
There was ONE foreigner who was INVITED out by the other Koreans. While it may not be as effortless as it is for a native speaker, it would be relatively effortless for an English teacher to speak English.
I don't care what the scenario is...when you have a group of people who all share a common language, the polite thing to do is for everyone to speak in that language. |
And when you move to a different country, the polite thing to do is to try and learn the language of the people of that country.
Furthermore, if there is a group and 3 people are more comfortable speaking in one language, the polite thing to do is try to speak in their language.
I think its rude not to acquiesce to the desires of the majority. I don't want to be some charity English case.
Or lets think of it a different way- Four people are at a table, 3 speak fluent English, one speaks intermediate broken English (and is an adult). Should the three people start talking like "I like steak? Do you like steak?" I'll tell you what, all four people would hate that. Let the three people have an enjoyable conversation and the fourth can listen in and maybe interject at odd points. There is nothing wrong with listening. Why do we always have to be talking?
That's what I do with Korean speakers. This makes me think of that scene in the 13th Warrior where the Vikings are all astounded that the Arab learned the language
"How did you do that?"
"BECAUSE I LISTENED!!" |
Oh my goodness, you're quoting The Thirteenth Warrior.......what a scholar you are Mr Steelrails!
You can't learn a language just by listening to it.....you need reference points, you need to understand more than 50% of what is being said in order that you have context for the other words. Watching a movie with target language subs when you are at an advanced level is one way that you can learn from listening, but not when you are a rank beginner listening to three people babbling away at a hundred miles an hour.
You cannot communicate in any meaningful way with a Native Speaker of another language until you are (at the base minimum) at a B1 level of proficiency......and that would be pushing it.
I am at C1 level proficiency in German and still struggle to keep up with a conversation between multiple Germans at normal speaking speed.....it takes a hell of a lot of time (like thousands and thousands of hours of study and practice) to get to the point where you can follow a conversation in another language, process what is being said, and be able to interject before the topic has moved on.
Language learning is a lot like learning an instrument....if you don't have a passion for learning a particular instrument, then you never will (many people learn to play the guitar, fewer - I would venture - learn to play the trombone). Many people simply are not passionate about the Korean language, beyond learning the basics they have no motivation. However, the same person may be passionate about learning Chinese, Spanish, French, Russian, Japanese, and if they are they will likely go on to learn that (or those) languages. Korea simply does not have much 'appeal' to some. If you don't want to spend the rest of your life living in the country and you don't plan to have a career that concentrates on Korea (or Asia in general) there is really no reason to spend thousands and thousands of hours learning Korean when it is not necessary for your job, you don't plan on staying in Korea, and there are other things that you could be doing with your time that would be infinitely more enjoyable.
Now, if you'll excuse me it's 6:15am here and I've been up all night studying German, which I will now get back to.........for the record, it is highly unlikely I could have ever motivated myself to stay up all night studying Korean......not to say that I won't try and learn the language in the future, but at the moment it is not a language that I am jazzed about studying and nor was it when I lived in Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You can't learn a language just by listening to it |
But if you refuse to listen or can't "stoop to just listening" then you are NEVER going to learn it. You can pick up pronunciation, certain words and inflections. It's good to sometimes listen to people. Not all the time, but sometimes.
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| there is really no reason to spend thousands and thousands of hours learning Korean when it is not necessary for your job, you don't plan on staying in Korea, and there are other things that you could be doing with your time that would be infinitely more enjoyable. |
Fine, but don't whine and moan that you aren't making Korean friends or don't understand this, that or the other.
The fact that some people don't try to learn Korean at all yet come here expecting English to be spoken to them is utterly baffling. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Fine, but don't whine and moan that you aren't making Korean friends or don't understand this, that or the other.
The fact that some people don't try to learn Korean at all yet come here expecting English to be spoken to them is utterly baffling. |
I've never seen posters on here whining about people not speaking English to them in contexts where it would not be expected e.g. in a shop, restaurant etc... The very occasional complaint that does come in is usually in an international tourist context e.g. There was a complaint that an art exhibition that specifically targeted foreigners in its marketing didn't have English labels on the pictures. Or in a context where they were excluded unecessarily, e,g, They were in a meeting with Koreans who all spoke English but they held the meeting in Korean.
I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone on here who is open about not wanting to learn Korean, complain that they can't find Korean friends or be understood in bars. Correct me if I'm wrong. There are some contexts where you would expect to be spoken English to in any country e.g. International hotels, foreign departments in banks, immigration offices, airports, tourist information offices and English departments in public schools. Who has complained about other situations? |
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Provence
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
Fine, but don't whine and moan that you aren't making Korean friends or don't understand this, that or the other.
The fact that some people don't try to learn Korean at all yet come here expecting English to be spoken to them is utterly baffling. |
I've never seen posters on here whining about people not speaking English to them in contexts where it would not be expected e.g. in a shop, restaurant etc... The very occasional complaint that does come in is usually in an international tourist context e.g. There was a complaint that an art exhibition that specifically targeted foreigners in its marketing didn't have English labels on the pictures. Or in a context where they were excluded unecessarily, e,g, They were in a meeting with Koreans who all spoke English but they held the meeting in Korean.
I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone on here who is open about not wanting to learn Korean, complain that they can't find Korean friends or be understood in bars. Correct me if I'm wrong. There are some contexts where you would expect to be spoken English to in any country e.g. International hotels, foreign departments in banks, immigration offices, airports, tourist information offices and English departments in public schools. Who has complained about other situations? |
+1
To fair though, maybe steelrails knows someone personally that does this. He does seem very adamant on this point. This leads me to believe he has some kind of emotional/personal connection to this topic. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think Steelrails really understands the concept of the global village and international language. He's come from one country to another, both of which he has a high stake in. He came here, not primarily because of the job, but because he has a vested interest in living in this country and learning the language. With that in mind it is inevitable he will look around at the misbehaving non-Korean speaking 'wasters' around him fresh out of uni and judge them according to his own standards. However, If he decides to make TEFL a career and apply for jobs in other countries according to the job, not the country, he may start to feel differently after a while. Let's see if he has the same self-righteous attitude when he gets to his eighth country and has dependents. Maybe then he'll feel that learning an eighth language may have to take a back seat to other considerations. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Hello, Edward Cat Flap!
If Steelrails doesn't understand "the concept of the global village and international language," that makes two of us.
I don't understand it either, so I would like for you to explain it to me.
Is it easier for others to learn our language than it is for us to learn theirs?
Are other people more responsible for learning our language than we are for learning theirs?
Do we look any less stupid making fragmentary statements in Korea than a Korean would making fragmentary statements in our country?
Or what?
Another thing I don't understand: why does a person have to move to eight different countries in order to make TEFL a career?
Hello, T-J!
Here is an excerpt from one of Edward Cat Flap's recent posts:
| Quote: |
| There are some contexts where you would expect to be spoken English to in any country e.g. International hotels, foreign departments in banks, immigration offices, airports, tourist information offices and English departments in public schools. Who has complained about other situations? |
Think you can answer that question?
Hello, Steelrails!
I like your comments about listening. I haven't been very good about learning by listening, but it seems that I have recently gotten better at it.
Last week, I left some work at the print shop.
I used the word 장, thinking it was the counter for copies, whereas actually it is the counter for sheets.
The printer was polite enough not to correct me, but I noticed that he used the word 부.
I looked the word up and found that it was the word I was looking for.
Today, one of my first graders brought in a visitor.
I try to keep my students from hangukmall'ing, but when there are visitors or newcomers, they get a kick out of showing them the ropes.
All the king's horses and all the king's men can't stop them.
I caught the word 그대로, and I hypothesized that it meant "thus."
The next chance I had, I looked it up and found that I was right.
I was a "charity English case" this morning.
But it seems that the other person saw the situation as Edward Cat Flap sees it.
At the hospital today, I got sent to the doctor who spoke the best English.
I had to swallow my pride because it was a matter of life or death.
The doctor noticed that I was feeling uncomfortable.
I explained that "I don't like to speak English to Koreans."
He must have misunderstood, because he later apologized that he couldn't speak English better.
I said, "I'm the one who should apologize. It's not your responsibility to speak English, it's my responsibility to speak Korean. You're not in my country, I'm in your country."
I'm still not sure he understood.
Say, it seems like you and I had a disagreement on another thread, but I forgot what it was about.
No, on second thought, don't remind me.
Hello, Sam D!
If you want, you can come on this thread and tell me how stupid I am for not already having known the words 부 and 그대로, but it won't help things any.
The best I can do is operate from the level where I am now.
Hello, English Matt!
I don't understand 50% of what I hear, but I listen anyway.
I try to catch as many words as I can.
Don't you think that's a good exercise?
Nor do I understand why one has to reach a certain level to read subtitles.
The first year I was here, I noticed that the subtitles said �젠자� every time the actor on the screen said "ㄹㅐㅣㅜ.�
If you are setting prerequisites for yourself, you are putting yourself in a vicious circle.
The time for you to go out and speak Korean to Koreans is NOW.
I hate to be rude, but if you're interested in German but not in Korean, what are you doing here?
I'm not interested in music but not in mechanical drawing.
So I buy books about music and read them.
Don't you think it would be foolish for me to buy books about mechanical drawing and then not read them because I'm not interested?
How would that be any different from going to Korea and not studying the language because one is more interested in German? |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:40 am Post subject: |
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All of you guys that are piling the hate on Tomato should realize that Tomato is an old guy (well, in his fifties I think, and I don't mean this to be offensive) - instead of trying to bring the guy down, why not look up to him? He's always courteous and polite, and still trying to learn new things/better his life, which is admirable on its own, but at his age (again, not meant to be offensive) it's something to strive for, isn't it, to always keep learning, right?
Cut the guy some slack. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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If Steelrails doesn't understand "the concept of the global village and international language," that makes two of us.
I don't understand it either. Please explain it to me.
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The majority of people on these forums used to live in Canada/USA and now live in Korea, work for a Korean boss and that is the extent of their experiences. Nothing wrong with that at all but my reference to the 'Global village' and the International language is that nowadays most people don't see language or borders as a hinderance to where or how you can do business. For example, I work with the British Council sometimes which has centres in 120 countries and I correspond with teachers and sometimes local staff in a lot of those countries in English because neither they nor me, have had enough time time to learn 120 different languages.
I did an online course last month where the tutor was from Egypt and no, I don't speak Arabic, she of course spoke English. I worked in a summer school for a month a couple of years ago in Hong Kong and no, I didn't bother to learn Chinese because all the local staff I dealt with there spoke English.
I worked in Vietnam for a month on a teacher training course last year and expected everyone who took part in, or organised the course, to speak English as I didn't have enough time to get proficient in the three weeks notice I had. And they didn't disappoint. Next year I'm speaking at a conference in Korea and guess what, they asked me to submit the details of my conference speech in English, because that's the language of the conference. Do I need to go on? My field happens to be TEFL but I think you'll find that in all areas across the international spectrum the same kind of thing is happening. Learn Korean if you want to get a job as an interpreter or an entry level position in a Korean company but English will still be the international language of commerce for a while to come.
And of course you don't need to work in 8 different countries but I do think it'd be helpful for you and Steelrails to work in at least one other  |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails, you want to get together with me and study Pashtu?
I'm going to Afghanistan as soon as my contract is up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Oddly my Spanish has improved since I've started here...go figure. I'd love to study Pashtu. Why not learn another language?
Again, if you want to go from country to country teaching EFL or just working for a year, fine. No one expectr you to devote your time to studying the language.
Global Village? Sure, an English speaking one. But I'd say that those that are trumpeting "global village" as an excuse not to study other language are, dare I say, Fergusonions.
I just think its a general rule that if you are going to move to another country to live, at least put forth the effort to learn the language if for no other reason than to exercise the grey matter.
Like I said, I gave tomato a bunch of grief early on for wanting people to speak Korean to him but not, I too want people to speak Korean but they insist on speaking English. Frustration! |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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It seems that living in Korea and studying Korean has sharpened my ear for languages generally, not just Korean.
I was in a school van where the radio was playing Besame mucho.
It was the first time I heard the song since I was in South America,
where I heard it many times.
This time, however, I caught more words than I did before.
I have also found that I can't stand opera singers who aren't Italian.
Before, I couldn't even tell the difference. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
On the other hand, imagine this: you spend a second year in Korea, get home and someone asks you how much Korean you picked up. Imagine that someone is giving you a job interview. |
I didn't go through the whole thread but I caught this part. It's not as important as you may think..if on the off-chance the question comes up, a simple "I made an effort to learn it and learned enough to get by with my day to day needs" would suffice for 99% of the interviews.
Let me give you another non-Korea related example. Here in North America, I worked for a company that dealt *a lot* with a counterpart in India. I'd go so far as to say the reason my project existed was to be a middle-man between our client in New York and our team in India. But I guarantee you if you had a job interview at my job absolutely no questions would come up regarding India including how well you speak Hindi. The only question they would ask is: "Are you willing to travel?".
So if my company is a middle-man company dealing with India, why you ask, do they not care about your Indian experiences? Because they're just not relevant to the job you're hired to do, and what you're not hired to do is to don traditional clothing and make waitresses lives easier because you can order a meal in their native language.
So am I hostile to learning a new language including Korean? Do I think it's a useless endeavour? Absolutely not. But it's a personal decision. |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Hello Tomato!
Even though I haven't said a word for a while, your constant comments suggest that you're missing my attention from other threads. However, I've been trying to restrain myself and not insult you, so I'll continue to stay out of it.
Good day to you sir, and I wish you all the best with your efforts to learn Korean (I also struggle with the language, and don't recall ever boasting about my level, so we may have more in common than you think). |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Tomato,
I don't live in Korea anymore, I live in Germany. My reason for coming to Germany was to become fluent in German, continue my studies of French and Russian and to go back to Uni to get a Masters in International Relations.
My reason for going to Korea was to earn money....plain and simple. The chance to live in an Asian society, make friends, travel the world and have some fun at the same time were pleasant byproducts.....however none of these things were responsible for my looking for and accepting a job in Korea.
I think you are under the misapprehension that the main reason that most EFL teachers travel to Korea is to study. It is not; it is to work. Life is too short to learn every language in the world that one is bound to encounter as a traveller. People should be allowed to learn the languages that interest them without judgement from others whose motivation for being in Korea is quite contrary to their own.
I'm not arguing against learning the basics and maybe continually trying to pick up a few new words and phrases the longer you are in country, but nobody should feel forced to put in the 10000 hours of study that are required for native level ability....particularly if one will have limited use for it in the future.
As to your other points. Listening comprehension: there needs to be done context in order to understand. Encouraging an A1/A2 level speaker to listen to a random conversation involving multiple native speakers speaking fluidly, fast and peppered with contractions and slang that they will likely never have encountered before is foolish. If you can't understand the majority of what is being said then eventually you will reach the limits of your attention span and start blanking the conversation out...now that isn't very useful. Slowly spoken stories or native speaker interaction at the level of the language learner is of far more use for beginners....anything else is discouraging and detrimental because the language learner learns to tune the language out.
Finally, watching a foreign language movie with target language subtitles is an inefficient way for most beginners to learn a language. Yes you might pick up a few words, but you will not have understood a lot of what happened. Far better to wait until you are at an intermediate level whereby you can figure out the meaning of an unknown word by placing it in context with the other words in the dialogue that you do know and the wider story in general (which by this stage in your language learning you should be able to follow).
Finally, I have to question how much you want to learn Korean. German eats up an enormous amount of my time.....so much so that I rarely have time to read or post on this forum nowadays. And yet everytime that I do come to Dave's, I see multiple epic posts by you. I do wonder how you fit in any time at all for Korean study when you are so verbose in your native language on this site. |
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skeeterses
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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English Matt, if you don't mind me asking,
What is your motivation for learning German, as opposed to Korean? Maybe you could write some long stories on this website and talk about the Fergusons over in Germany. |
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