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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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What was a good thread debating what is our place when we see a Korean child with signs of physical abuse and the merits or wrongs of the Korean notion of corporal punishment has deteriorated because of a troll-like hijacking from somebody who cannot handle others' opinions and writes self righteous essays instead of posts. I suggest we ignore the troll who in all likelihood is not a NET. 
Now for methdxman's post.
| methdxman wrote: |
The western view of "never hit your children" is pretty narrow-minded.
I agree that you shouldn't hit your kids in the U.S. or most western countries. That's because Western parents are terrible. They neglect their kids, send them to nurseries, emotionally/mentally f them up, etc. etc.
In Korea, kids are nurtured and taken care of. At least one parent is always around, they have a strong family support system, and older siblings are expected to take care of their younger ones.
Yeah, I think lots of Koreans get a bit messed up by the whole grades/school thing, but all in all the proof is in the pudding: Korea does not suffer from that many social ills.
Korea is doing something correctly. |
Actually my parents and plenty of others' parents here and elsewhere never neglected their children. You need to understand the difference between messed up dysfunctional families and normal family practices in the west. And your perception has something to do with the fact that neglect and abuse of children are heavily publicised in western media because western societies tend to air out their problems unlike in Asian societies like that of Korea.
As for your 'nurseries' comment, I gather you're referring to childcare. While it's become more common in western societies over the past 20 years or so not all parents put their children in childcare for most of the day. If they're both working, yes, and sometimes if one parent works then the child might go to a day care group but this has more to do with socialisation. There are still children who do not go to childcare but stay at home and get socialised in other ways.
As anybody who has lived in Korea can see, children get turned over to institutions just as much when they are pre schoolers rather than their Mothers looking after them. When they start school, Korean kids spend far less time with their parents/families than western kids because of all the after school school. Too many hagwons function as after school childcare for older kids.
Koreans share far less family life than most other ethnic groups I know because of after school education. The unnecessary amount of time their fathers spend at bars and doing other employer-mandated out of office activities (including a fair few Korean men visiting prostitutes with their workmates on the company credit card) means many Korean kids have little real time with their fathers.
I think family bonds are getting looser in Korea especially because of this emphasis on not going home at a reasonable time for the men and the lack of real time children spend with their mothers and other family members. Hagwons generally ARE childcare in Korea - the difference is the children being taken care of are primary school, secondary school and university students.
Social ills vary from country to country. Koreans don't mess themselves up with dope smoking and hash cakes to mention two common drugs in western society but their attitude to alcohol remains rooted in attitudes that resist public health campaigns. In the UK there are young people who go mad on drinking in their weekend time but it's recognised for the problem it is, just like drinking problems among older people are. There are plenty of public health campaigns that revolve around drinking, drug taking and smoking ordinary ciggies.
I've yet to see any real publicity in Korea about why you should be careful about drinking alcohol, let alone real health campaigns. I remember some anti smoking ads they ran a few years ago and instead of demonstrating the damage it does they had young men being shamed not to smoke by model-like young women. The message that alcohol has a high public health cost just isn't there. They still push packets of ciggies on the young males doing their military service and nobody thinks that's wrong.
While western countries have normalised single parenthood and that can be detrimental to the children involved, there are a lot more functional single parent families than exaggerated media would have you believe. I don't think that the Korean family where the father is largely absent because of after work activities with co workers and ridiculous demands that men give up their free time in unnecessary ways for the company is better than a normal single parent family where the kids are cared for.
I don't think that shunting kids off to extra schooling instead of spending time with them during the weekdays or weekends makes Korean society better than western societies. In fact we see the problems at school whereby more and more Korean students don't seem to have basic courtesies and increasing numbers of them have no idea of how to relate to others outside their immediate circle of same age chingu because they don't spend enough time being taught certain skills by their parents.
And I think the whole point of this thread was not corporal punishment but a kid being roughed up literally by her father. I agree that it's the Korean teachers' role to do something about this and foreigners getting involved is fraught with difficulties, but punching a kid in the face to leave that kind of bruising is assault no matter how normal some Korean men and women think that is. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| What was a good thread debating what is our place when we see a Korean child with signs of physical abuse and the merits or wrongs of the Korean notion of corporal punishment has deteriorated because of a troll-like hijacking from somebody who cannot handle others' opinions and writes self righteous essays instead of posts. |
Said by someone who writes an essay response, who can't handle different opinions that disagree with his and assumes abuse when there was only 1 incident and 1 bruise. It is not like she came everyday or every week with a new bruise on her body.
You all take one thing and blow it out of proportion, possibly inflictingharm on innocent people for no valid reason.
What you want, like souterman, is for everyon eto pat you on the back and say 'good job' but I hate to tell you this but you, him, and the Op are wrong and are not helping that child but possibly hurting her.
There is nothing wrong with Korean style corporal punishment, it is their country and they get to set the tone, the amount, the limits not Westerners. That is what gets to you, things are not done your way thus you have to force them upon others who have the same rights as you to make their determinations of what abuse is.
It is amazing to see how many people leap to the conclusion that the child was abused when all they had was the OP's side of things. There were few clear heads in this matter and they are attacked by those who do not understand the difference between discipline, punishment, and abuse. (I will throw in the word 'violence' as well as that word is distorted beyond its natural meaning).
Oh, and I haven't hijacked anything but sought to bring into the conversation some rational, moral thinking that was severely lacking. |
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iRock
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| NET would rather you spend your time coddling adults who can't do their own work than save a child from a dangerous situation. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: |
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I have tangled with fat old farang several times on corporal punishment in K schools.
I also fully support corporal punishment as an option for parents (to be used very judiciously)
this was not corporate punishment. This was abuse. a beating.
you do not hit anywhere outside of the buttocks as a parent as a general rule.
as K teacher, I suppose exceptions can be made for some whacks on the palms, and perhaps even on heels.
anything above the neck is flat out abuse, and should never be accepted and or tolerated.
My blood would've curdled if I were in your place OP and that "father" would get looks of death from me if we ever met (and if cared to ask why he was receiving such, I'd flat out tell him and call him out for the coward and abuser he is)
then he could try to abuse ME.
I'm glad steps were taken by your Korean coworkers. From my very limited experience, I do think Korea is becoming less and less accepting of true abuse, especially at home. Some K teachers at my PS school have mentioned to me the difficult home situations of many of our students. I am sure they do take whatever steps they can in abuse situations to see it doesn't continue. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I will respectfully disagree with you both. it is neither dangerous nor abuse. 1 bruise on 1 occasion with mutliple sources as an option does not equal abuse nor a dangerous situation.
You all are leaping to a conclusion you cannot prove true nor can prove intent. I will also disagree with location determines the difference between abuse and discipline, for that is subjective as well.
By the way, being told the police will be called and the police actually being called are two vastly differentthings. The OP may have been told that to shut him up.
A lot of you are too unrealistic here and ignore the fact that your 'do-gooder' position can do more harm to the family than the father did to his girl. I am glad you people are not in charge of any country or have a position of authority for you would hurt too many innocent people in your crusade and zealousness.
Your definition and opinion do not coount, this is not your country and they have defined what is abuse their way and you have to go by their definition because you are in their country not yours. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
I will respectfully disagree with you and also in comparing your other posts with this last one, take the position of doubting you.
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The problem would be solved from my point of view because I would no longer have to witness it.
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The problem isn't solved if you are against 'abuse' or corporal punishment and it still continues. All you are putting into practice then is 'out of sight out of mind' and that doesn't aid your statement of 'protecting the students in your class'. It just changes to a different venue. |
All I can do is make my classroom as safe as I possibly can. I am well aware that I am in a foreign country and am in no way in a position of power. Thats is basically all anyone can do. I am lucky in that I don't have student debts or other financial constraints. I know I can get another job easily, elsewhere, if I choose.
However, I enjoy teaching my Korean students and they seem to enjoy having me in the classroom. So of course I am going to protect them as much as I possibly can. I was actually told last year by an EPIK Supervisor that EPIK does not condone physical abuse in the classroom (I actually rang her up and asked for the official stand on the matter). Therefore, I am also supporting a large Korean Educational Organisation.
Also ,the same lady came and graded me ,amongst others, during my open class. She asked me to re-sign with them and at my request transfered me to my present location. I think you'll find that theres more than a little embarassment in Korean Education circles about how this whole issue is perceived by their guests, namely us. Frankly, that's only a good thing in my opinion |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| All I can do is make my classroom as safe as I possibly can. |
So now you think that the Westerner is the big protector of Korean children against the big, bad mean Korean teacher? I will disagree with that idea because I have never had to over-step my boundaries and say that a Korean teacher cannot use approved discipline on their students.
In fact, I have never seen abuse done once in the last 10 years by a Korean teacher in any of the schools I have worked in. We are not hired to be'protectors' as if the Korean staff is incapable of handling their own problems and the might superior Westerner knows best, get over yourself, you are not in the west with its distorted views on child disicipline.
| Quote: |
| I was actually told last year by an EPIK Supervisor that EPIK does not condone physical abuse in the classroom |
No one the world over supports child abuse in the classroom, this doesn't mean anything, nor does your following comment what we are talking about is the application of the definition of what is 'abuse' and I have contended that westerners cannot make any declaration because their standards do not apply in this country and they are not allowed to over-rule the Koreans' right to create and maintain their own definitions and standards regardles of the fact of they agree with the west's or not.
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| Also ,the same lady came and graded me ,amongst others, during my open class. She asked me to re-sign with them and at my request transfered me to my present location. |
So? Doesn't mean anyhing at all and doesn't contibute to the discussion. I can see your supervisor and raise you 3 schools, possibly a 4th, who want me to teach for them. I am not here to get into a pissing contest.
What I see advocated by the OP and all those who support him or her are the following points:
1. Assumption and leaps to a conclusion without evidence trumps reality, fact and truth with evidence. {1 bruise on 1 occasion in 9 years does not equate abuse and too many people are missing this}
2. A kangaroo court mentality. The person is guilty regardless of the facts simply because some westerner applies a subjective definition without knowing what is really taking place nor conducting a honest invetigation to find out the truth. {too many innocent westerners are imprisoned because people do this all the time and solely based upon unsubstantiated comments by a supposed 'victim'}
3. Guilty until proven innocent.{Not one of you have applied your own western ideal of innocent until proven guilty to this situation or issue. the person is automatically guiklty even though nothing has been proven and all you have is one side of the issue and a hearsay comment. You all are very dangeros people in that you throw out your principles, mercy and justice because something doesn't go the way you want it to. Then you hurt innocent people to get your way. You are wrong.}
I cannot agree with you because you are distorting the issue and not looking at things correctly and assume certain actions grant you permission to force your ways upon others when they do not.
The Korean teachers, vice-principals, Principals, and so on are not dumb, do not need help when dealing with these matters and there are already safeguards put into place to help the students. They certainly do not need wild false accusations by temporary westerners screwing up Korean families like they do inthe west.
I do not need to 'safeguard' my classroom because the Korean people have already done that. Westerners need to learn to mind their own business. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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You do what you have to do and I'll do what I have to do.
You are lucky if you haven't witnessed physical abuse in your classroom however I and others have.
You lead your life the way you see fit and I cetainly lead mine by my moral and ethical code. I do seek your approval or indeed anything from you at all.
I would be doing the same thing in any country I was teaching in. Why you cintinually harp on about western this and western that is irrelevant to me. If Korea doesn't want me and others like me they can revoke my Visa. It is an easy thing to do and painless for both parties. Until then I will make my classroom safe and my students welfare remain my paramount objective.
I actually think you are just trolling, as others have said. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Until then I will make my classroom safe and my students welfare remain my paramount objective.
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Your 'paramount objective' should be what your hired to do--teach english not interfere with the Korean right to discipine their own students.
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You are lucky if you haven't witnessed physical abuse in your classroom however I and others have.
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You mean you saw what you subjectively labeled as abuse. Keep in mind that if you reserve the right to label something as abuse, you must allow the Korean people the same right to label it as they see fit which may not coincide with your label.
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| I actually think you are just trolling, as others have said |
No, not trolling, Just tired of westerners like you, earthq. and the OP who do not understand that Korea has the right to define what is abuse in their own country, who do not mind their own business, who over-step their boundaries, think thatthe Koreans are incapable of handling their own affairs and then cause problems for the rest of us because you could not do your job but had to interfere and hurt innocent people.
I have mentioned innocent people before which you and the others on your side of this discussion have ignored which tells me that you do not care if innocent families are hurt or torn apart by your false accusations and distorted definitions.
That is a poblem and I cannot stand silent or idle when people like you have a complete disregard for other people and their rights and think you get to decide what is or isn't abuse regardless of what the duly elected government and its people have declared to be abusive. Or interfere when the Korean teachers are doing correctly by obeying the regulations approved by their real bosses.
Your double standard and hypocrisy nullifies your position and makes your definition moot.
P.S. I have never seen a Korean embarassed because they applied corporal punishment as regulated by their duly elected superiors and obeyed the rules set out for them by their bosses. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Welfare under the broad definition includes education, obviously. Because every child has the right to education under the United Nations Convention for the Rights Of Children (UNCROC).
How can any of the responders be challenged as harming innocents when it is things we've seen ourselves. That is why your repetitive point about that issue has not been responded to by anyone before.
You on the otherhand come across as someone who wishes to protect adults who have abused children.
Anyway I've places to go and people to see yada yada.... Even though you may not appreciate the fact, you are indeed a TROLL by definition and statement  |
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