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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Visitorq and Recessiontime believe (I think) in a "society" which effects us, but which we are better off not trying to manipulate. As with the success of capitalism itself, a "society" is better built by the pursuit of happiness of each individual, rather than attempting to impose your view of how the collective should be advanced. |
I just literally think of "society" as a whole bunch of individual people. I'm about as divorced from the abstract collectivist notion of it as you could be. This is because I know for an absolute fact that the abstract notion of "society" doesn't really exist.
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| On the other hand, I think Leon and BB believe in a "society" in which we as individuals are responsible for the environment we interact with. Their "society" is a situation in which it's important to intentionally encourage positive conditions for those around you, thereby creating benefit for yourself. For example, the more potential inventors we train, the more useful inventions will be created. |
Actually this doesn't contradict anything I've said at all... The difference is that I don't advocate forcing others to do things that will benefit "society" (ie. using it as an excuse to impose my word view onto others, as control freaks are wont to do).
Encouraging others to do well is perfectly good and admirable; thinking you know what is better for others than they themselves do (children aside) is arrogant and unfounded. People seeing themselves as part of society in order to justify their sense of entitlement is equally as reprehensible. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| There is no "we as a society" (even though you've no doubt been taught this all your life). In reality there's only you, me, and a whole bunch of of other individuals, each of whom are responsible for their own lives and decisions. Nobody is entitled to another person's money, or for anything except their own fundamental liberties. To treat everyone as a collective (no matter how well-intentioned) is an affront to human dignity. |
I feel your pain. There's very few wildernesses left to seclude yourself in. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| There is no "we as a society" (even though you've no doubt been taught this all your life). In reality there's only you, me, and a whole bunch of of other individuals, each of whom are responsible for their own lives and decisions. Nobody is entitled to another person's money, or for anything except their own fundamental liberties. To treat everyone as a collective (no matter how well-intentioned) is an affront to human dignity. |
I feel your pain. There's very few wildernesses left to seclude yourself in. |
Sure there are. For one as lacking in reading comprehension as yourself, northern Canada might be a good place to start (nary a fellow human around for a thousand square miles). As for me, I'm decidedly a big city person. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| As for me, I'm decidedly a big city person. |
Apologies. I didn't realize you'd be more in favor of apartment hermitages. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:31 am Post subject: |
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/12/riots-fire-anger-defining-political-moment
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| "Politicians don't care about young people as we don't vote as much. We are just collateral damage." |
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| "There is a slim chance of going to university now," said Roze Brooks, 17. |
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| Young people are discussing fears about their financial futures. "Debt for ever?" asked Holly Carlile, 22, from the University of Birmingham. "Will we ever be out of rented accommodation? How are we expected to put a single foot on the property ladder?" |
'Austerity' means everything for the rich and screw the middle class. What will it take to get a government that acts in the interests of the citizens? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
What will it take to get a government that acts in the interests of the citizens? |
It will take voters not sabotaging themselves in the poll booths. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: |
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The interests of the citizenry varies from citizen to citizen. Even then the citizens don't always know what they want.
The best solution I can think of is to maximize local control at the State and County level. The issues a national government deals with should be minimal because it is usually only very basic issues that people can agree on- such as make sure we aren't invaded and you can drive from one state to the next. Monetary policy is the one that is necessary, but unfortunately one of the more difficult, especially with a floating currency.
When one has an aging population, in a world with limited resources, having one's education policy being determined at the national level by the government in such a fashion is a recipe for trouble, especially as non-parenthood continues to grow in popularity. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
The interests of the citizenry varies from citizen to citizen. Even then the citizens don't always know what they want.
The best solution I can think of is to maximize local control at the State and County level. The issues a national government deals with should be minimal because it is usually only very basic issues that people can agree on- such as make sure we aren't invaded and you can drive from one state to the next. Monetary policy is the one that is necessary, but unfortunately one of the more difficult, especially with a floating currency.
When one has an aging population, in a world with limited resources, having one's education policy being determined at the national level by the government in such a fashion is a recipe for trouble, especially as non-parenthood continues to grow in popularity. |
Actually, the US government on a national level, for the most part does not have that much control over education. Sure, there are some minimum national standards that are in place, etc., but the reality is that the funding and resources for schools are all determined at a county (no, not country) level. So, some people would actually argue that the national government has too little control over education.
Now I am not sure if that is the exact stance that I would take, but nonetheless, some drastic action does need to be taken at a national level. Personally, I would like to see some sort of New Deal type of approach to improving education in America. And yes, I do know about Teach for America, but that falls greatly short of what I would have in mind. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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