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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I googled this one:
1. Person formally certified by a professional body of belonging to a specific profession by virtue of having completed a required course of studies and/or practice. And whose competence can usually be measured against an established set of standards.
2. Person who has achieved an acclaimed level of proficiency in a calling or trade. See also professionalism.
Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/professional.html#ixzz18253mL5g
I would venture to say that simply working at a hagwon does not make you a professional. The reason for this is simply my opinion. A photographer who makes his living from his work is a professional photographer, because, to my limited knowledge, there is no required license or governing body over who can and who can not be a photographer.
In the teaching field, there are certainly professional bodies, though I recognize that there is no requirement to belong to these bodies, or be recognized by these bodies to teach ESL abroad.
So, it depends upon your choice of definition. I wasn't a licensed teacher when I taught abroad, so while I would freely call myself an ESL teacher as the way I made my living at the time, I would not call my self a professional as I didn't receive any type of training, nor would I claim to have achieved any level of proficiency. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I would venture to say that simply working at a hagwon does not make you a professional |
I will disagree with you and trump your definition with one by the Oxford dictionary:
Professional: 1. connected with a job that needs special training or skill, especially one that needs a high level of education...
2. (of people) having a job needs special training and a high level of education.
3. showing that somebody is well trained and extremely skilled
4. suitable or appropriate for somebody working in a profession
5. doing something as a paid job rather than a hobby
So I would conclude that a hagwon teacher can be considered a professional and eliminate this desire to establish a elitist mentality for ESL teaching in Korea. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| eliminate this desire to establish a elitist mentality for ESL teaching in Korea. |
I wouldn't call it elitist. I'd say it depends on what side of the fence your standing on. I personally think that privatizing K-12 education is morally wrong. The quality of your education and by implication your life, should not be determined by how much you pay. Universities are a different story because they usually have programs for high need families but, you have to cross a certain threshold to get it |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but hagwon teachers, PS teachers, and university 'professors' in Korea are contracted efl workers. Nothing more. Nothing less.
We're all employed on temporary contracts, have no tenure, our job security is dependent on the whims of our immediate superiors/co-workers (and worse, our students), and our 'job/profession' has been de-skilled to the point where we can be replaced by any new face, fresh off the boat (hurts, but it's true).
Let's face it. Teaching English as a Foreign Language (at any level) is a middle class laboring job. Our employers know this, and our wages/conditions/benefits etc reflect this. There's nothing wrong with being a middle class laborer, and I don't see why many TEFL teachers in Korea feel the need to sneer at other teachers who (they think) work in positions 'inferior' to their own.
Sadly, there's quite a lot of this sneering nonsense on Daves - especially at the start of the academic year - when certain posters feel the need to continually remind newbies that they lack the qualifications/status of said posters. Kinda sad, really.
Good luck laborers. |
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Epik_Teacher
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| oldfatfarang wrote: |
Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but hagwon teachers, PS teachers, and university 'professors' in Korea are contracted efl workers. Nothing more. Nothing less.
We're all employed on temporary contracts, have no tenure, our job security is dependent on the whims of our immediate superiors/co-workers (and worse, our students), and our 'job/profession' has been de-skilled to the point where we can be replaced by any new face, fresh off the boat (hurts, but it's true).
Let's face it. Teaching English as a Foreign Language (at any level) is a middle class laboring job. Our employers know this, and our wages/conditions/benefits etc reflect this. There's nothing wrong with being a middle class laborer, and I don't see why many TEFL teachers in Korea feel the need to sneer at other teachers who (they think) work in positions 'inferior' to their own.
Sadly, there's quite a lot of this sneering nonsense on Daves - especially at the start of the academic year - when certain posters feel the need to continually remind newbies that they lack the qualifications/status of said posters. Kinda sad, really.
Good luck laborers. |
Best post of the week! Have a good time in Thailand, dude!  |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Epik_Teacher wrote: |
| oldfatfarang wrote: |
Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but hagwon teachers, PS teachers, and university 'professors' in Korea are contracted efl workers. Nothing more. Nothing less.
We're all employed on temporary contracts, have no tenure, our job security is dependent on the whims of our immediate superiors/co-workers (and worse, our students), and our 'job/profession' has been de-skilled to the point where we can be replaced by any new face, fresh off the boat (hurts, but it's true).
Let's face it. Teaching English as a Foreign Language (at any level) is a middle class laboring job. Our employers know this, and our wages/conditions/benefits etc reflect this. There's nothing wrong with being a middle class laborer, and I don't see why many TEFL teachers in Korea feel the need to sneer at other teachers who (they think) work in positions 'inferior' to their own.
Sadly, there's quite a lot of this sneering nonsense on Daves - especially at the start of the academic year - when certain posters feel the need to continually remind newbies that they lack the qualifications/status of said posters. Kinda sad, really.
Good luck laborers. |
Best post of the week! Have a good time in Thailand, dude! |
Yes, sadly, my time in Korea draws to a close. Soon, there will be no more journeys of a thousand tears to my school in the Forbidden City. No more teaching Englisheee to those wonderful Korean princesses. No more meals of a thousand kimchi dishes. No more mileniums of deskwarming. No more eslcafe. No more.
Can I bear the pain of not teaching Englisheee in Korea? Will I fall on my white board marker in shame?
Not bloody likely. I'm off to paradise.
Good luck. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
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| I would venture to say that simply working at a hagwon does not make you a professional |
I will disagree with you and trump your definition with one by the Oxford dictionary:
Professional: 1. connected with a job that needs special training or skill, especially one that needs a high level of education...
2. (of people) having a job needs special training and a high level of education.
3. showing that somebody is well trained and extremely skilled
4. suitable or appropriate for somebody working in a profession
5. doing something as a paid job rather than a hobby
So I would conclude that a hagwon teacher can be considered a professional and eliminate this desire to establish a elitist mentality for ESL teaching in Korea. |
Sorry - I wasn't suggesting that people who work at hagwons couldn't be professionals.
I think there are professional ESL teachers (MA TESOL for example). I think there are professional teachers who teach ESL (BEds, MEds). I just don't think somebody with a Bachelor of Fine Arts who has been working at a hagwon for a month or two could be considered a professional ESL teacher. They might strike off 4 & 5, but what about 1,2 and 3? |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I just don't think somebody with a Bachelor of Fine Arts who has been working at a hagwon for a month or two could be considered a professional ESL teacher. They might strike off 4 & 5, but what about 1,2 and 3? |
They fit fine. They are highly educated, doing a job that requires skill or special training and are well trained. One does not need a TESOL, BEd or higher, or a teacher's diploma to teach English and anyone who has used the English language for more than 20 years and studied it growing up certainly does not need such pieces of paper to do the job.
It seems you are trying to create a false heirarchy and make ESl elitest by demeaning a good professional job and making the people who work in such positions as inferior. Your lowering the status only encourages entrance by people you wish to keep out of teaching here.
If a hagwon position is considered professional, which it is, then maybe some of those so-called unqualified teachers will be motivated to improve their skills and give everyone a good name instead of fueling the fires of complaints against the native speaker in this country. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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They fit fine. They are highly educated, doing a job that requires skill or special training and are well trained. One does not need a TESOL, BEd or higher, or a teacher's diploma to teach English and anyone who has used the English language for more than 20 years and studied it growing up certainly does not need such pieces of paper to do the job.
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In my experience the only people who say this kind of thing are those who have never got any qualifications. Go away, do an BED, MA TESOL or CELTA/DELTA then come back and say it didn�t make you a better teacher and people might listen. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="superNET"]
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I
If a hagwon position is considered professional, which it is, . |
By whom? Certainly not by Korean parents. Look at all the stupid complaints they make. Nor it is considered professional by the Ministry of Education. Heck even many/most teachers on here don't consider it professional. And given all the shenanigans that hakwon bosses over the years have got up to, it doesn't seem that they consider it professional either. Go back to the West and try telling an interviewer that one's job was at Ding Dang Dong Hakwon and that yes it was a professional job. You'd be laughed out of the office particularly when it emerges that the requirements for such a job are a B.A and clean CBC.
A hakwon position is a ENTRY LEVEL position not a professional one. Now a professional PERSON can certainly be working in a hakwon position. But it is not the position that confers professionalism, it is your qualifications. A B.A in anything and a clean CBC do not confer professionalism. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
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| I just don't think somebody with a Bachelor of Fine Arts who has been working at a hagwon for a month or two could be considered a professional ESL teacher. They might strike off 4 & 5, but what about 1,2 and 3? |
They fit fine. They are highly educated, doing a job that requires skill or special training and are well trained. One does not need a TESOL, BEd or higher, or a teacher's diploma to teach English and anyone who has used the English language for more than 20 years and studied it growing up certainly does not need such pieces of paper to do the job.
It seems you are trying to create a false heirarchy and make ESl elitest by demeaning a good professional job and making the people who work in such positions as inferior. Your lowering the status only encourages entrance by people you wish to keep out of teaching here.
If a hagwon position is considered professional, which it is, then maybe some of those so-called unqualified teachers will be motivated to improve their skills and give everyone a good name instead of fueling the fires of complaints against the native speaker in this country. |
I understand what you're saying, and perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on a few things. I think we have a glass half full/half empty thing happening.
There is nothing wrong with being a first time ESL teacher, and I apologize if my previous post came across that way. But many teachers, and I mean many, are well educated - but in fields that have little or nothing to do with Education or ESL.
Many receive little to no training (through no fault of their own, the employers should be providing that), and relatively few have TESL/TEFL/CELTA.
I'm not saying that they should be prevented from working because that would be silly, and, let's face it, we all have to start out somewhere.
I do, however, think that it is important to recognize people who have developed their skillset and expertise - either through experience, or by training and education (or all of three!). I don't think that is demeaning to anybody.
I'm not even suggesting that having credentials or a BEd necessarily makes you a good teacher. What I'm saying is that, though there is no shame in being a first time ESL teacher, or just starting out, you have to pay your dues in order to earn the respect that goes with being called a professional, otherwise it is disrespectful to the people who have put in the time and work.
I think your last point touches on common ground between our two viewpoints. It isn't the position that I'm talking about, it is the person. A hagwon position can be held by (in my opinion) just about anybody - professional or no. I think that it should be taken seriously, and that anybody in a hagwon position should seek out opportunity, and be supported by their employer (ha! - whole other argument) in order to develop their skills and expertise and to become professionals.
So superNET- can we agree on that last one? Sort of? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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In one of my education courses, the textbook discussed the question of "are teachers professionals?"
The book said no, because professions by definition regulate themselves.
For example, doctors in the United States tell Congress to go jump off and instead make their own rules through the American Medical Association.
Teachers in the United States, on the other hand, follow certification standards which are set by each state legislature.
Here in Korea, the rules for 학원 teaching are set by the whim and neuroses of each director. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not saying that they should be prevented from working because that would be silly |
Why would that be silly? It's what happens in most countries. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| In my experience the only people who say this kind of thing are those who have never got any qualifications. Go away, do an BED, MA TESOL or CELTA/DELTA then come back and say it didn�t make you a better teacher and people might listen. |
First off, people who say things like this just do not get responded to.
Second, such qualifications does not mean you can teach, in fact most cannot teach after getting those certificates because they lost what is important to teaching.
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| So superNET- can we agree on that last one? Sort of? |
I have no problem with that request. I worked with a guy many years ago who at that time had a BEd, taught in N.A. public school, and at that time had been in Korea for 7 years teaching aand he considered the hagwon teaching position professional because teaching is bigger than the locale.
Those westerners who dismiss hagwon positions as unprofessional are like those people who dismiss cruise ship doctors as being non-doctors because they practice their profession on a cruise ship..
Sorry but the rules of the profession apply no matter the locale and a teacher is a professional no matter where they teach whether it be in a hagwon or an one room, dirt floor school house in afghanistan.
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| By whom? Certainly not by Korean parents. Look at all the stupid complaints they make. |
You choose to use comments as your criteria? Please, then I guess some doctors aren't professional because someone unjustifiablly calls them a quack.
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| Nor it is considered professional by the Ministry of Education. Heck even many/most teachers on here don't consider it professional. |
So what? The profession doesn't change because someone doesn't consider it so. Teaching is teaching no matter where you are doing it an done is a professional and they should act like one as well. Maybe if the western hagwon teacher had their act together and acted like professionals it would be consider part of the profession.
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| You'd be laughed out of the office particularly when it emerges that the requirements for such a job are a B.A and clean CBC |
Yet isn't that america's standard as well as laid out by the No Child Left Behind Act?I believe one part of it said, and this part hurt small schools, that if the teacher was going to teach a specific subject, they had to have a degree in that subject to do so?
Westerners do not need a BEd in English because we use the language everyday of our lives and have had 11 to 12 years of being taught the language in public school. We already should know the language, how to correctly use it and if we do not then something is very wrong.
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| A hakwon position is a ENTRY LEVEL position not a professional one |
No it is not and you should know better than that. This is not McDonald's or some other corporation where you start off sweeping floors then move up to fries , then grill then to assistant mgr. , etc. There is no corporate ladder here where promotion is part of the deal.
Teaching is teaching no matter where you do it and if one does it right in the hagwon then they are doing it right and cannot be criticized because they do not work at a university or public school..
A profession, its rules, its demands, transcend locale. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems you are trying to create a false heirarchy and make ESl elitest by demeaning a good professional job and making the people who work in such positions as inferior. |
It's not a false hierarchy, any more than saying there is hierarchy in the wild kingdom (snake to mouse analogy). The difference is a professional has more bite, native speakers can only squeak like a mouse.
It doesn't matter how accurate I am when defining a word in English, the student is going to want a 1:1 correspondence with the information they are given in their first language. I don't see this happen when it comes to mechanics, doctors, or salespeople. The customer or patient isn't looking to fix their mechanic's car or prescribe medicine to the doctor. The reason it is a profession is that one person is doing a service for another.
And to that I question the individual who chooses to fly more than 10 hours to a foreign country to only maintain a "profession". Are they not also in it for the 1:1 aspect? Meaning, aren't they too wanting to learn, experience another culture, etc...?
These are all aspects I cannot affix to a profession I would otherwise have in the states if I weren't here in Asia. That is why it is very hard for me to call what I do a profession.
I feel more like a coach to the students and an assistant to a native speaker who also teaches the students.
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| If a hagwon position is considered professional, which it is, then maybe some of those so-called unqualified teachers will be motivated to improve their skills and give everyone a good name instead of fueling the fires of complaints against the native speaker in this country. |
Now it seems like you are supporting it to be a hierarchy. I know before you mentioned false hierarchy, so if you saying you have always supported some hierarchy (just not false), then at which point does a "job" become a "profession"? Are their qualifications one must have, or do they need a certain number of years?
I think it will be very hard to extinguish the fires of complaints while we only contract for 1 year. Another aspect to this profession/not profession debate is that I don't know any other profession where you go in with an agreement you will leave after one year.
Doctors don't just sign a 1 year contract with a hospital. A mechanic is not going to work on cars and learn the ins and outs, switching after one year in a garage. Going down the ladder of employment, we have those temp jobs and part-time jobs. These are really not a means to a constant field of interest, but rather a way to earn "extra" cash in the short run.
I'll end with the only common sense definition I see now online for "profession":
"a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation"
Do you have some other definition? |
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