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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| If you're so keen on introducing feminism to Korea, why don't you do what the Mormons do and dedicate your free time to spreading the good word? Some people will want to hear it and some people will not, but at least that way you're not misrepresenting yourself as an educator. |
I think that Milk has hit on a great idea for you. You'd probably get lots of housewives who would listen to you just for something to do or for the conversation practice. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
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| We discussed many thing, but I was greatly entertained by his "admission" that Korean males have little power in marriages |
That may be so in his family but I have not seen it in others. There are 50,000,000 people in this country and you cannot go by 1 person on how things are done.
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I've met plenty of middle aged Korean guys who say exactly the same thing. In the house SHE's the boss. He's only the boss outside the home or when guests are visiting. I've rarely met guys who will claim that he's the boss at home. Talk to most guys and they'll tell you that the big dilemma and headache in their lives is when mom and wife are at odds with each other because then he's got TWO bosses and regardless of who he sides with he's going to get whipped by at least one of them.
Koreans have gender roles that they still stick to today, but largely it's because women see a benefit to them. Some women WANT to be a housewife because they prefer it to working 9-5. But the gender roles doesn't always mean that men are unilaterally the boss. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| ippy wrote: |
As i say, youve made your point, now how about some constructive criticism. I mean why is it "asking for trouble"? What "trouble"? Will the police be knocking at my door? Will i be out of a job?
Or will the students just find it a bit abstract and boring? Well then... thats precisely why this thread exists after all. Exactly how can i make it meaningful, relevant, fun, and interesting without insulting their choices? |
1. It's asking for trouble because you may annoy your co-workers and colleagues. If you can live with that then fine. You'll probably also get annoyed yourself when you find that the locals aren't so quick to adopt your philosophy.
2. No. The police don't care.
3. If you annoy the wrong person, then it's possible. Not likely, but it may add to another situation down the road and be the feather that tips the scales out of your favor.
4. Most likely yes. Kids don't tend to care about this type stuff. You might be able to run the topic for up to 15 minutes if you're lucky but likely they'll get board and complain if you come up with too many boring classes. They probably find "How to snag a rich husband" just as or possibly more interesting. Not necessarily because they care, but because it's an entertaining topic. Sort of along the lines of "What would you do if you were dictator of a small country?"
5. If they're not interested, then probably you CAN'T make it interesting for them. Why try? Why cater the class to what YOU are interested in? Why not cater it to what the STUDENTS are interested in? |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Just another who has come to take up the white persons burden and bring enlightenment to the brown heathen. Try teaching english! That is what the contract you signed calls for. |
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superNET
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| It's asking for trouble because you may annoy your co-workers and colleagues |
She may also annoy parents and if that happens then she may be in big trouble.
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| Just another who has come to take up the white persons burden and bring enlightenment to the brown heathen. Try teaching english! That is what the contract you signed calls for. |
This is good.
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| I've met plenty of middle aged Korean guys who say exactly the same thing |
I see your plenty and raise you mine. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Just another who has come to take up the white persons burden and bring enlightenment to the brown heathen. Try teaching english! That is what the contract you signed calls for. |
Koreans are brown? I don't think they'd appreciate you saying that. |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
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SuperNET is a troll but I have to agree that this is overall an extremely bad idea.
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If I am a troll then so must be Eslmilk Everyday because I agree with his point of view. You are here to teach English not convince the children of your western views.
I too am very tired of the 'superior' westerner who uses the classroom for their agenda. I have heard that many homosexuals teach that their preference is okay, that is not the job you were hired to do.
As an example, I am a Christian BUT I have never used the classroom to further the Great Commission, that is not my job to convert the students, my job is to teach them English and through the years I have avoided subjects like dating, love, homosexuality, religion, feminism and many other controversial topics that spring up in the Jack Martine or the Talk series.
It is not my place to talk to the students on such issues. I have felt for years that such topics are for the Korean authorities (government, parents, teachers) NOT the westerner.
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| A long way to go, but the westerners are here to help. |
I agree with ESLmilk on this as well. The westerner is NOT here to help on such matters.
When my co-teacher and I use topics, we use topics that the student can relate to or we have them pick what they want to write about, we do not fill their heads with our point of views, we focus on teaching them English and to use it correctly.
The Koreans are free to run their society as they see fit regardless of the fact if the westerner likes it or not. |
Yes they are. But if you can get someone talking in English then ... |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| superNET wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We discussed many thing, but I was greatly entertained by his "admission" that Korean males have little power in marriages |
That may be so in his family but I have not seen it in others. There are 50,000,000 people in this country and you cannot go by 1 person on how things are done.
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I've met plenty of middle aged Korean guys who say exactly the same thing. In the house SHE's the boss. He's only the boss outside the home or when guests are visiting. I've rarely met guys who will claim that he's the boss at home. Talk to most guys and they'll tell you that the big dilemma and headache in their lives is when mom and wife are at odds with each other because then he's got TWO bosses and regardless of who he sides with he's going to get whipped by at least one of them.
Koreans have gender roles that they still stick to today, but largely it's because women see a benefit to them. Some women WANT to be a housewife because they prefer it to working 9-5. But the gender roles doesn't always mean that men are unilaterally the boss. |
yup. I'd bet a lot of money on this being true. as I said, especially so in middle age and beyond. The adjumma rules ALL.
now imagine being a middle aged guy in an unhappy marriage with an aging unpleasant bat. You can't run away, divorce will destroy you financially and everything you ever worked for. You are screwed.
that would explain why so many of them get drunk so often with their buddies and then hit a room salon, etc.
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| Koreans have gender roles that they still stick to today, but largely it's because women see a benefit to them. Some women WANT to be a housewife because they prefer it to working 9-5. |
see that hilarious K kid quote earlier in the thread. Teacha, mother lazy, watch tv all day, father work 10 pm.  |
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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't think talking about men/women or boy/girl roles would be so radical or condescending or wacky. You could even tie it into Korean pop culture. Have you seen Sungkyunkwan Scandal? It's a recent historical TV drama with a bit of a Mulan/Yentl storyline. It's quite popular with the brainy girls at my middle school. I'll bet your students like it, too.
Watch a few episodes from mysoju.com, and ask your students what they think about the show. Ask them whether they think it's better to be a girl now or a girl back then, etc. Warning: the conversation will likely veer into homosexuality (an underlying theme of the show) or dreamy, dreamy Geol Oh. |
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vermouth
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Location: Guro, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| superNET wrote: |
No don't do that. You are not here to change the Korean culture, they get to decide how their culture will be not some westerner. |
How is teaching feminism an effort to change the culture? When I was in middle school i was exposed to the ideas of Karl Marx. I don't think my teachers were trying to instill in me a belief that the history of civilization was one defined by class struggle working towards a stateless dictatorship of the proletariat. They were just giving me a well rounded exposure to significant ideas in world history.
And not just in social studies, there's all kinds of evidence that interdisciplinary education can be helpful.
Even if we assume that feminism and Korean culture are totally in opposition to each other, mere exposure isn't somehow a threat to anyone. Assumptions that it is actually seem kind of raving mad paranoid. |
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Kimchieluver
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: |
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[quote Assumptions that it is actually seem kind of raving mad paranoid.[/quote]
Paranoid what?
Teaching ESL or EFL is not teaching English Lit or the American school system values.
Not that I am against teaching the evolution of rights for women in the western world, you should understand the students age level and make the content comprehensible within the curriculum taught by the school.
Just my two cents. |
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vermouth
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Location: Guro, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Kimchieluver wrote: |
Not that I am against teaching the evolution of rights for women in the western world, you should understand the students age level and make the content comprehensible within the curriculum taught by the school.
Just my two cents. |
Of course, and I would give deference to their actual teacher. It's been my experience that at the top end students do a pretty good job handling complex subjects. If the teacher thinks they can handle this I don't see why it should be taboo.
At my last academy I remember some of the upper level kids wrote papers about things like issues in bioethics, and my first day at my new school in debate class the kids were debating whether food aid should continue to North Korea. I don't know why hey like some people had an idea that women and men should be treated the same would be outlandish.
What I think is paranoid is anyone who starts with the assumption you're teaching a philosophy therefore you're advocating for that philosophy and trying to somehow undermine Korean culture. |
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BaldTeacher
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Incendiary issue i appreciate. But im doing a winter camp and i want to give them an introduction to feminism.
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Don't screw up the kids in Korea with that cancer.
If you talk about it, be sure to do it objectively. Don't glorify people like Andrea Drorkin. You can also talk about the divorce industrial complex, the culture of false rape and the criminalization of masculinity. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: |
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It's one thing for a history teacher to mention Karl Marx in the context of early 20th century history, and portray him objectively as an influence on world politics, and another thing for a language instructor from a Communist country to come in and ask his students to study communist ideology (without providing any counterpoints, of course) and then relate it to how they personally think about the world.
The way I understand it, she isn't teaching the history of feminism or feminism in the west, she's teaching the ideology, and trying to get them to relate it to their own thoughts and beliefs. Seriously, do you think that at age 13 these girls are going to be doing enough research to have a balanced point/counterpoint? Or do you think they're going to read 'feminists believe in equality' and think-- hey, I like equality! Not that they will understand any of that anyway.
It sounds to me like she's on some sort of an enormous and grotesque girl power ego trip where she wants to take her students' focus off of less 'meaningful' topics like Dokdo, and direct them towards what she personally considers to be meaningful and worthwhile. And I think it's pretty obvious that it's because it's in line with what she personally believes.
If this is a perfectly acceptable topic, as I said before, then why not teach Fascism? Why not teach Christianity? Why not teach Islam? What about anarchy? Or white supremacy? If we're all so open-minded and neutral and all subjects are innately objective and no idea is dangerous or potentially upsetting, then what's the difference?
Oh wait, that's right... it's only upsetting if you personally don't agree with it.
Last edited by ESL Milk "Everyday on Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kimchieluver
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| vermouth wrote: |
| Kimchieluver wrote: |
Not that I am against teaching the evolution of rights for women in the western world, you should understand the students age level and make the content comprehensible within the curriculum taught by the school.
Just my two cents. |
Of course, and I would give deference to their actual teacher. It's been my experience that at the top end students do a pretty good job handling complex subjects. If the teacher thinks they can handle this I don't see why it should be taboo.
At my last academy I remember some of the upper level kids wrote papers about things like issues in bioethics, and my first day at my new school in debate class the kids were debating whether food aid should continue to North Korea. I don't know why hey like some people had an idea that women and men should be treated the same would be outlandish.
What I think is paranoid is anyone who starts with the assumption you're teaching a philosophy therefore you're advocating for that philosophy and trying to somehow undermine Korean culture. |
I respect that, but don't have them go outside and burn bras that they don't have. |
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